Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2021 21:17:23 GMT
Talking about people seeing other people at LBH launches me into the topic of Target Acquistion.
DeRudio says he identified Custer on the "bluffs" from the Timber. That is a pretty far range, 3 - 4 miles I think. I'd know if I went to look at my map, but I don't feel like going to look at the moment.
I, as related in the COG thread, claim I recognized three of my kids at abdout 1 - 1.5 miles. Then I took a photo to see if I was right.
Chuck looked back at the Crows nest from the LBH and I think from near Weir Point to the monument and believes, even with high quality binoculars, he would not have been able to see the horse herd and could barely see the monument.
I intend to see if I can see my wife visually or through my camera lens when I get there from Weir Point to LBH.
At least three of us on the board are tankers and so have had to acquire targets from about 400 meters out to 2500 or more from pop up targets. However, these targets frequently announce their presence with a puff of smoke.
In the UCOFT (a tank gunnery trainer) I could distinguish in the simulator between tracked and turreted and wheeled or tracked, but not turretted. I constantly shot APDS at BMPs which is overkill and was criticised for it every time. But in the simulator, I could not tell the difference. They both had tracks and a turret. Tank. Shoot it.
As I drive I frequently think about it. Florida is pretty flat and cars on the Interstate are pretty easy to see and I guess I can see them about 2 - 3 miles away (the distance between hilltops). I can tell Tractor-Trailors from cars/light trucks, but certainly can't tell the car model and probably not the color. (I'm driving so using binoculars as part of the experiment is a non-starter). I don't see how I would be able to distinguish tank models although from their aspect or position, I would be pretty confident of friend or foe.
THermal sights make acquisitin much easier and I think seeing them through sights I could identify type pretty easily as compared to daylight optics, but the experience of the 1-1 Aviation Battalion commander/1 ID during Desert Storm, that may not be so as he managed to nail both a Bradley and an M113 with Hellfire. (He was relieved by the CG).
In training I could pick up enemy targets pretty well, but of course since we were all the same type, friend or foe is diffficult, but pretty easily detectable given what they are doing. During reconnaissance trips to the NTC, I was able to acquire targets with the naked eye and distinguish tanks from APCs pretty easily. As they closed, I could probably distinguish them.
My combat experience was limited to the Divison Main CP during Desert Storm, so there was no opportunity to really put my abilities to the test.
With regard to gunfire, living in Manhattan next to Fort Riley artillery and tank fire could easily be heard in most cases. Small arms I don't think I ever heard. My house was about a 30 minute drive to the Fort. While living in Germany outside Fulda, I could sometimes hear artillery or tanks from Wildflecken, as I recall. Almost anywhere on a German traiing area you could hear tank/artillery fire, but i don't remember small arms.
Also during Desert Storm, at night we could see bomb bursts and feel the ground shudder from what we thought were B-52 strikes, but I don't recall hearing them. I saw and heard a Scud Missile detonation from about 2000 meters as we went through Hafir al Batin.
I read in the Civil War, gun fire could be distinguished at relatively long range, but hills or wind could cause wind shadows where you could be fairly close but still not hear the gun fire.
There is of cousre a case of a USAF fighter pilot misidentifying Blackhawks with external tanks as Hind helicopters and shooting them down. I don't think I could do that even if was heavily drunk.
So, I approach the ability to see objects at the distances reported at the LBH with some disbelief, but find that different people, perhaps not widely far apart from each other, might fail to hear gun fire from 1 - 4 miles away based on wind direction, their faciing, and how much their ears ring. (Mine ring constantly. So loud, I suspect other people should hear it.)
I'd be interested in anecdotes from the group on their experiences.
DeRudio says he identified Custer on the "bluffs" from the Timber. That is a pretty far range, 3 - 4 miles I think. I'd know if I went to look at my map, but I don't feel like going to look at the moment.
I, as related in the COG thread, claim I recognized three of my kids at abdout 1 - 1.5 miles. Then I took a photo to see if I was right.
Chuck looked back at the Crows nest from the LBH and I think from near Weir Point to the monument and believes, even with high quality binoculars, he would not have been able to see the horse herd and could barely see the monument.
I intend to see if I can see my wife visually or through my camera lens when I get there from Weir Point to LBH.
At least three of us on the board are tankers and so have had to acquire targets from about 400 meters out to 2500 or more from pop up targets. However, these targets frequently announce their presence with a puff of smoke.
In the UCOFT (a tank gunnery trainer) I could distinguish in the simulator between tracked and turreted and wheeled or tracked, but not turretted. I constantly shot APDS at BMPs which is overkill and was criticised for it every time. But in the simulator, I could not tell the difference. They both had tracks and a turret. Tank. Shoot it.
As I drive I frequently think about it. Florida is pretty flat and cars on the Interstate are pretty easy to see and I guess I can see them about 2 - 3 miles away (the distance between hilltops). I can tell Tractor-Trailors from cars/light trucks, but certainly can't tell the car model and probably not the color. (I'm driving so using binoculars as part of the experiment is a non-starter). I don't see how I would be able to distinguish tank models although from their aspect or position, I would be pretty confident of friend or foe.
THermal sights make acquisitin much easier and I think seeing them through sights I could identify type pretty easily as compared to daylight optics, but the experience of the 1-1 Aviation Battalion commander/1 ID during Desert Storm, that may not be so as he managed to nail both a Bradley and an M113 with Hellfire. (He was relieved by the CG).
In training I could pick up enemy targets pretty well, but of course since we were all the same type, friend or foe is diffficult, but pretty easily detectable given what they are doing. During reconnaissance trips to the NTC, I was able to acquire targets with the naked eye and distinguish tanks from APCs pretty easily. As they closed, I could probably distinguish them.
My combat experience was limited to the Divison Main CP during Desert Storm, so there was no opportunity to really put my abilities to the test.
With regard to gunfire, living in Manhattan next to Fort Riley artillery and tank fire could easily be heard in most cases. Small arms I don't think I ever heard. My house was about a 30 minute drive to the Fort. While living in Germany outside Fulda, I could sometimes hear artillery or tanks from Wildflecken, as I recall. Almost anywhere on a German traiing area you could hear tank/artillery fire, but i don't remember small arms.
Also during Desert Storm, at night we could see bomb bursts and feel the ground shudder from what we thought were B-52 strikes, but I don't recall hearing them. I saw and heard a Scud Missile detonation from about 2000 meters as we went through Hafir al Batin.
I read in the Civil War, gun fire could be distinguished at relatively long range, but hills or wind could cause wind shadows where you could be fairly close but still not hear the gun fire.
There is of cousre a case of a USAF fighter pilot misidentifying Blackhawks with external tanks as Hind helicopters and shooting them down. I don't think I could do that even if was heavily drunk.
So, I approach the ability to see objects at the distances reported at the LBH with some disbelief, but find that different people, perhaps not widely far apart from each other, might fail to hear gun fire from 1 - 4 miles away based on wind direction, their faciing, and how much their ears ring. (Mine ring constantly. So loud, I suspect other people should hear it.)
I'd be interested in anecdotes from the group on their experiences.
