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Post by mhoyt on Apr 19, 2021 20:15:21 GMT
First, MHoyt let me join the others sir in welcoming you aboard. Look forward to exchanging opinions and ideas with you. As to Major Reno's action in the timber, I am going to use a term I use, and I am sure to some ad nauseam, "When you are in an untenable position. right or wrong DO SOMETHING" I have read the senior Officers in this forum explain how to properly execute a retreat, withdrawal, fall back, etc, and have no doubt explained correctly to a T. But what Reno did was none of those, what he did was a "Breakout" which is nothing more than a hell bent for leather charge through enemy forces to prevent being fixed and destroyed. I know that Capt Benteen said that Reno could have defended for a long time, but even though I believe he was the best Officer in the field that day, his opinion of the position means little to me because he wasn't there. You cant tell how long a position can be held by looking at a few trees. The Officers that were there stated under oath at the RCOI that Reno made the correct choice. If he had not they and the entire command would all be dead. Now, where I have a problem with this "Break Out" is that some of the men didn't get the Word on what was going on. Who is responsible for everyone to get the word? Is it the Battalion Commander or the Company Commanders. I asked why no Bugle call to let the men know what to do and I was given what I felt was a good answer at the time, which was that it would alert the enemy that something was going to happen. But on thinking about it, so what, who cares if they know something is going to happen. They dont know What is going to happen or where. The troops are the only ones that are going to know what the bugle call means. So why no Bugle call. We know, unless he was dead, that he was attached to Reno's hip just like radiomen are attached to the Commanders hip in modern times, as they are the means of communication to the Command. Be Well Well we have 5 trumpeters who made it unscathed out of the village and hilltop fights. Moylan who seems to be next to Reno, had two trumpeters that made it unharmed to the Hill.
Charles Fischer, M Company (at least one of the men who tried to help Hodgson by having him grab his stirrup) William G. Hardy, A Company (viewed the Hodgson incident) David McVeigh, A Company (who went to DeRudio with his horse). George B. Penwell, K Company (but assigned and in Valley fight to Reno - as a messenger it appears). Henry C. Weaver, M Company (assigned, and unhurt in fight)
Says DeRudio when Trumpeter McVeigh brings his horse, "I do not want my horse," but McVeigh said: "They are leaving the timber Lieut." but as DeRudio had heard no bugle calls he doubted McVeigh's statement. (Camp's interview with DeRudio).
I guess at least DeRudio expected a trumpet call of "To Horse". At least someone was sent to look for him.
VR Mark (But I guess the viewpoint could be tainted a tad by having to go to ground, but he being the only man that ever escaped Devil's Island probably gave him some resilience).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 21:55:28 GMT
My personal opinion is given the previous Lakota encounters is he could have held. Many in his command believe he did the right thing. I believe that a Commander should have an understanding that there are 8 other companies and a 100 man pack train out there, and they will be coming to the sound of the fighting at some point. He should have been more patient. I do respect your points (mine are from being a 20th/21st century Army Officer - and it may not relate as much as I wish), and certainly I wasn't there. However, the Breakout itself became a rout, because it was disorderly at best.
Mark, Except no one, for whatever reason, in the 7th Cavalry on that day rode to the sound of the guns. Nor does it seem Custer was telling his people what he wanted to do. -Custer did not send Herendeen down Tullock's Creek. If he decided to follow the trail, that is something he should have told Terry. (Naturally, the information would be old and perhaps too late to matter). -Custer sent Benteen off to the left without Scouts or one of his three doctors. Benteen said he had no idea where the LBH was and I tend to believe him. If he did, he did not know the way we would today with the maps we have. Custer apparently didn't tell anyone else in the Regiment what Benteen was going to do. -Custer did send two messengers to Benteen clarifying his orders . -Benteen did not provide Reno much information about his orders, not that he really knew and Reno was not in command of anything at the time, just wandering around dong the duties of the Regimental LTC, whatever they may have been. Clearly, he was not with Custer at that time. -Reno sent two messengers to Custer, but he retained them and did not send any new orders back to Reno. At any rate, he did not turn around to aid his subordinate. IF he had told Reno to hold the enemy by the nose while he moved to kick them in the ass, then Reno may have fought harder. -Custer sent one messenger to the trains who told Benteen that he wanted the packs moved up; Benteen merely pointed him to the trains and took no further action; nor did the packs attempt to speed up. (Perhaps they couldn't speed up.) The trains apparently did not take any special action after Kanipe went there. -Custer sent an order to Benteen to come up, but did not say where "up" was and that he wanted the packs. Benteen did not react much to the information. I would like to think I would send a messenger to the packs to hurry up and follow me and tell the messenger to guide me to where he last saw Custer and move out. When Reno, Benteen, and the trains were united, they did have 7 companies, but were encumbered with wounded. Perhaps they were 70% effective. I like to think I would have moved toward Custer, but our hindsight shows if I had done so, I would have been caught out in the openwith three companies and likely been destroyed.
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 19, 2021 22:01:39 GMT
I am not at all sure Benteen could have joined up with Reno had he stayed in the timber. In fact I am not at all sure Benteen would have tried to do so, in light of the number of warriors that would have been between himself and Reno. I think that Benteen's appearance made the Lakota pull back, they didn't know how many troops were in the area at all. Initially they thought it was Crook's force and that would have implied over 1,000 soldiers. A few of their accounts talk about this. Remember, the Lakota didn't have all knowing intelligence either.A breakout from encirclement is an offensive operation, an attack. If it is to be successful it must be sudden and fast. Sudden and fast is not consistent with by bounds or dragging led horses along. This attack, took a 90 degree turn across a non-existent ford to avoid contact -- so it doesn't exactly fit your definition.He was lucky, no doubt, and Benteen came along AFTER contact was broken, but with Indians still in the area. Do not fool yourself into thinking that Indians being drawn away from Reno would make a difference as to Custer's fate. It would not have. Custer was skunked by the Cheyenne. Those Sioux coming from Reno got there only in time for the last dance, and to eat the last bit of Potato Salad in the picnic basket. I don't think Custer should have crossed the MTC. Several think he would have been successful if Reno had held, but I don't think its probably true. I think there were far far too many warriors. That doesn't mean Reno gets a free pass, for destroying his command, and if it held out on that hill, I am betting it could have held better with access to water, and at least some cover.
At the Rosebud, Crook basically quit on the campaign, because he realized his force wasn't fast enough to maneuver against the Sioux, and they knew where he was -- I believe the Rosebud stunned Crook, and personally his actions kind of show he didn't think he could get the village unless it was broken up into smaller chunks later. And I believe he only saw one-half of the warrior force that was visited upon the 7th Cav that day.Had Reno stayed in that timber he would most certainly been annihilated. Had he broken out and Benteen not arrived, he would have delayed his annihilation, but it would have certainly come his way. There is no question at all that Reno WAS combat ineffective when he reached the top of those bluffs, yet he gets the blame from many for not then going immediately to aid Custer, in a combat ineffective state, and not knowing where Custer is. I actually don't believe he would have been annihilated. Prior to mounting horses. He had one casualty. Staying in the timber, and securing the area with 400 men, he could have had a better position, by holding onto water, and having more cover. So we are both making assumptions, you that the timber was less cover then the bare naked hills, and me by leaning toward Benteen calling it an A-1 fighting position. We will never know - he didn't stay. However, there was enough timber to hide a dozen men with 1,000 warriors going back and forth. And they had a couple of horses.
I don't remember blaming Reno for not going to Custer's aide after his "breakout". He was combat ineffective. I think that I have blamed him in the past for not sending messengers, but that was probably akin to killing them at this point, so maybe not so much anymore. Most people don't understand that a 30% casualty rate devastates a force. Just because I think Reno made a bad error in judgement, without using his commander's hat and thinking there were other friendly forces out there, and thinking he was not going to get aide was very limited thinking; doesn't mean after he made that bad error in judgement, that I blame him for not helping Custer. If I don't think Custer should have crossed the MTC, now adays (I told you I am wishy washy, and can change my opinions given a good logical stance) than I would think if Benteen moved forward he should not cross the MTC either. I am undecided anymore, because I think Reno's decimation may have save the rest of the 7th through pure happenstance. Reno, could not have moved forward though. He was short a good 40 men, counting those not back from the woods, add - a few wounded, and horses shot up. He is done. Now don't take anything I say that disagree with your views as being anything but the same as what actually did happen immediately after the battle by both those that participated, and those who arrived on scene in the immediate aftermath. THAT PART OF HISTORY is something that has not changed in a 145 years, and will continue for at least another 145 more. Yes I love debating this. However, I can't prove I am right at all. I just put it in the patterns I see in other fights.I would be interested in knowing what you C&GS professor's views were on Reno in the timber. You mentioned that you disagreed with him but never gave specifics. He roughly agreed with you; but his theory was based more on the fact that Reno's troops were already in the process of routing (I think Fred holds this too, and Fred almost convinced me on this, but I read the accounts again), and I think that is debatable. French had control of his men, and the men with DeRudio and the timber were well in hand. I think now that maybe Moylan lost control of part of his company. However, I don't remember him using the ammo depletion scenario. Custer was not going to win this battle, because he went for the wrong COG, he didn't appreciate the immensity of the opposition (no one really did at the time, or Reno doesn't go down the valley attacking with 130 or so men). So the attack was wrong, because the intelligence was really bad. When did Custer see it first hand, if it was with the note to Martin - then he shouldn't have crossed the MTC. He had to call the ball, and he was a very offensive oriented officer -- what made him great became his greatest weakness. VR Mark.
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 19, 2021 22:02:44 GMT
We should call this Thread Hoyt debates the Reno Breakout, and Finds His Own LBH. VR Thanks for the posts guys. I hope you actually read my COG theory.....its free online, and in PDF -- and shouldn't take to long. I would always like thoughts like, wow that was really brilliantly put....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 22:18:33 GMT
It's hard to keep a thread disciplined, which is why I asked it be moved away from my other discussion.
I think the COG is the mind of the enemy commander. Initially I disagreed with your theory after reading it, since I am something of an attritionist. However, it grew on me and I think the horses were fundamental. Custer killed them at the Washita. Reynolds captured them at Powder River, but then failed to guard them. Later, the US contrived to strip the Indians of their arms and their horses, so you are probably right.
It would be interesting to game out having the whole Regiment go after and scatter the horse herd and seeing how the other player reacts. But soldiers are not blocks of wood or cardboard counters and playing wargames in your den is not the same as live maneuver, much less combat.
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 20, 2021 0:19:04 GMT
It's hard to keep a thread disciplined, which is why I asked it be moved away from my other discussion. I think the COG is the mind of the enemy commander. Initially I disagreed with your theory after reading it, since I am something of an attritionist. However, it grew on me and I think the horses were fundamental. Custer killed them at the Washita. Reynolds captured them at Powder River, but then failed to guard them. Later, the US contrived to strip the Indians of their arms and their horses, so you are probably right. It would be interesting to game out having the whole Regiment go after and scatter the horse herd and seeing how the other player reacts. But soldiers are not blocks of wood or cardboard counters and playing wargames in your den is not the same as live maneuver, much less combat. Yes, but boy did I play the Hell of of some ASL (loved Squad Leader)....
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 20, 2021 2:54:58 GMT
Mark you will be excited to know I agree with your COG idea. The Custer problem was that he had pretty much zero knowledge of what was in the valley. I am not the first to say he lost the battle in the days before by inadequate scouting. I think his unwillingness to communicate some strategic intent to his officers was because he did not actually have one. My feeling has always been that he was initially thinking that the Indians were closer to Ford A and hence Benteen was sent left, and the rest were to follow Reno into the valley. Then he realized the Indians were further down the valley and changed his mind. He decided, on the moment, that he needed to get around the warrior defense screen before they "got away". I think his intent was to go to MTC and re enter the valley there, behind the village, but when he got to MTC the "cupboard was bare" because the village was so large that it encroached on Ford B. Ooops! Custer had two choices, go back or go on. Custer, being Custer, chose the most aggressive; go on. Double Ooops!
Double Ooops never ends well.
It is interesting that as far back as the Crows Nest the scouts tried to get Custer to see the horse herd.
Cheers
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 20, 2021 12:49:50 GMT
I agree. Not sure why he crossed MTC, to me if he saw the majority of the village -- that was where Custer had to not be Custer and go against his nature of attack, attack, always attack. The Rees and Crow (Absaroka) scouts absolutely knew there was no way this was going to work after they saw the immensity of the horse herd which was so large, that Varnum also couldn't see it, and the Scouts told him to look for brown worms wiggling --- and Varnum couldn't conceive that they would cover the entire hill, and Custer had the same issue. It wasn't that he didn't see them, it was that they covered the whole country, and it just looked like hills. The officers in the 1876 Sioux Campaign didn't conceive of the amount of Lakota that were off the reservation.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 20, 2021 15:27:47 GMT
Didn't Custer have the aid of field glasses or a telescope? I am sure he did, and he still couldn't see the herd, maybe this was why he didn't hold much faith in their notion of the amount of Sioux.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 15:39:55 GMT
He apparently borrowed/kept De Rudio's binoculars which were supposed to be better than the average set in the day. However, they were direct optical magnification whereas today it is something more advanced and effective. Dust and haze probably inhibited his ability to see the herd. It's a long way from the Crows nest to the village site.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2021 16:16:52 GMT
We have spent a considerable time discussing Center of Gravity. Stipulating that Custer understood the concept of COG (which to me is in some doubt) and identified the horse herd as the COG:
1) How was he to get at the COG - specifically avenue(s) of approach?
2) What method could be used to deal with the COG once he got there?
3) How would he intend to fight off three thousand pissed off Indians after he ran off their horses?
4) How would he allocate forces to meet the requirements of any plan he developed?
I would expect developing such a plan would take one heck of a lot of coordination, and timing of execution would be of paramount importance. Truthfully, I do not believe Custer possessed the requisite skill set for such an operation. I believe it is much more complicated than it first looks. The Indian Confederation had well sited their village. They had interior lines. They knew the three prime points of their vulnerability. Most of all they expected, and were prepared for an attack. Those eight or nine hundred who swarmed Reno did not do so by accident. Wolf Tooth and his fellows, as well as others, may have been hunting, but I'd wager their first priority was looking and providing security.
SIDEBAR: I viewed the Crow's Nest from the Reno area with a pair of U S Navy Watch Stander's Binoculars (very powerful field glasses) and the whole damned Afrika Korps could have been at the Crow's Nest and I would not have been able to see any trace of them Ian. I have doubts about the scouts seeing the horse herd from that location, always have.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 17:16:58 GMT
I played out trying to scatter the horse herd a little last night using the game www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/20774/battle-little-bighorn . You can see the game set up and a close up of the village below (not from my game). At this point, the camp has been alerted and Reno is in skirmish line. It may be hard to tell, but many of the pony 'bands' are starting to be led to the village and some warrior bands are moving toward their horses. Each hex represents 1/4 mile or about 440 yards. Game turns are 15 minutes. Each US Counter generally represents a troop and an Indian counter represents a tribal band perhaps two or three times the size of a troop. The indians are armed with some bands having Repeaters and others having bow/arrow and other weapons. For my little test, I have the whole regiment together, stacked up behind Ford A. Scouts Varnum leading on the Friendly side of the ford, Reno, Custer, Benteen, Trains. (this is HEX 8813). Iron Eagle is 5 Hexes away in HEX 8315. The scouts cross and move 6 hexes and are adjacent to Iron Eagle. Reno moves 5 hexes and moves up right behind the Scouts. Custer is tucked behind Reno, and Benteen is in trail. Trains are off the map. When Reno moves into his final hex, he is 2 hexes away from Iron Eagle and the rules allow him to immediately take a full move and run away, But before he moves, The Scouts get opportunity fire at half strength and get no effect. He moves 7 hexes and the Sioux player elects to move direct toward the village so he can alert it and is now . He is marked with a "Routed" counter. He is now 5 hexes from the village. This ends the 7th's turn. The first thing the Indian player gets to do is attempt Rally Iron Eagle. He rolls a 3 which fails, and the rules require he move at least 3 hexes and as many as 8. He is able to reach the camp and it is now alerted. Iron Eagle reached Sitting Bulls Camp, so all of its warriors may move at full rate and the rest of the camp at one half movement rate. The Indian player also gets to roll to see if the boys herding the ponies can start moving toward the camp. At this point I stopped for the moment. Iron Eagle is at the bottom left of Sitting Bull's camp stacked with another counter and the Routed Marker is offset. Not much excitement. The die rolling can get tedious. Looks to me like Custer should have waited a day and attacked just before dawn. I could, of course, have selected a movement path for the 7th that stayed outside the two hex limit for triggering Iron Eagle's flight, but it probably would have only added 1 or 2 turns before the Indians were alerted. Not enough to get in there as start scattering.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 17:18:01 GMT
This shows the scene right after Iron Eagle reaches the camp. The Die rolling is about to begin. Attachments:
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 20, 2021 19:45:11 GMT
He apparently borrowed/kept De Rudio's binoculars which were supposed to be better than the average set in the day. However, they were direct optical magnification whereas today it is something more advanced and effective. Dust and haze probably inhibited his ability to see the herd. It's a long way from the Crows nest to the village site. De Rudio complained about this later, because they never came home -- I think Custer force borrowed it.
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Post by mhoyt on Apr 20, 2021 19:45:51 GMT
This shows the scene right after Iron Eagle reaches the camp. The Die rolling is about to begin. Go for those horses....
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