DP-11 In the Timber

[Deleted]

DP	Who	Timeline	Location	Local Time	Clock time	Event
11	Reno	J, K, L, M	Vic:  Timber DD: 45.5275 -107.4059 MGRS 13TCL03125044	1326	1423	48 minutes after dismounting, Reno begins to retreat.

Let's assume here, Reno has the opportunity, however brief, to make a plan and communicate it instead of being spurred into a perhaps unreasoning response based on getting Bloody Knife's brains splattered all over him. Never having had that happen to me, I cannot predict how it would affect my cognitive abilities. I don't think Reno was incompetent, he had a reasonable record in the Civil War being breveted Brigadier General, and people just seem to blame him and Benteen for Custer's mistakes, such as they were. (Don't beleive Custer was a fool or incompetent either.) Assume in any case, he designates a rear guard and disseminates his plan. If you think you are going to become encircled/isolated, the sooner you break out the better. The enemy has not yet worked around my flanks. I have suffered few casualties. I am worried about ammunition. I don't know where Custer and Benteen are. Can I risk sending messengers? Custer didn't answer my last two messages? What's he at?

Course of Action 1
Defend in Place
Advantages
We seem to have a good position with reasonable access to water.
Flanks somewhat protected by water.


Disadvantages
If enemy fords the river and works around to my rear, then I am surrounded.
No ammo resupply
Enemy can set the woods on fire.

Course of Action 2
Ford river due East and head for the High ground (Weir Point))
Advantages
That height seems defensible.
May move me closer to Custer. (Just where is he?)
Don't have to move as far to get to the high ground.
I can set the woods on fire to cover my move.

Disadvantages
Have to ford the river, then work across marshy ground/flats.
Enemy horses are fresher and faster than mine.
No water

***Course of Action 3***
Retreat South East and head for high ground (Reno Hill)
Advantages
That other height seems defensible.
May run into Benteen and the trains. (What is he doing?)
I can set the woods on fire to cover my move.

Disadvantages
Don't know if there is a ford there
Enemy horses are fresher and faster than mine.
2nd farthest distance to travel.
No water


Course of Action 4
Retreat South and Head for the Ford.
Advantages
We know how to get there and the ford is good.
Ground is defensible on the other side.
Close to water
May run into Benteen and the trains. (What is he doing?)
I can set the woods on fire to cover my move.


Disadvantages
Farthest distance to travel.
Enemy horses are fresher and faster than mine.

Comparison. Staying put has its advantages, but I risk becoming encircled. Holding my position or trying to get to the ford lets me have access to water. Staying put makes ammo resupply problematical. The other three may let me link up with some portion of the regiment. Going for the heights is a bit risky because I don't know the way and it doesn't look like I can get to water. In any case, when I move to a new position, I run the risk of getting surrouned and strung out due to my horses condition. Not sure of the ground on the other side of the river. I guess it looks okay. The further I go, the more casualties I will get. Therefore I should either fight it out here or get up to that nearer height (Weir Point). By staying here, I am fixing a large part of the enemy. This may give Custer an opening to come to my support indirectly. Also, if Benteen is getting nearer, he may hear the souds of the fight and come on in for the dance. But, of course, he wil have to break in to come to my aid and he may get surrounded himself. On the other hand, if Custer starts something - anywhere - maybe that will draw the Indians off, let Benteen come to me, we can joint forces, resupply, and then ride to the sound of the guns. This looks like a real Kubayshi Maru test.


Recommendation: Stay and fight. At least here we have defensible terrain instead of being caught out in the open.

[yanmacca]

Once Reno saw that leaving men on the valley floor was becoming untenable, his option of moving back was out of his hands.
His battalion was spread out without any command structure.
Trying to issue orders for a withdrawals would have been impossible as M was on the other side of the plane, G and A where both spread along the timber and even occupying a low depression which ran along the side of the timber.
Officers are all over the place, DeRudio himself was not with his men.
Then we have reports of officers drinking.

[quincannon]

Course of Action 5: Head for Ford A, and grab any opportunity that presents itself. That's is exactly what Reno did. He was not heading for Reno Hill. He was heading for Ford A, and as pointed out Indians on faster fresher mounts, cut him off forcing him to cross the river wherever he could and try to make it to the top of the bluffs.

Battle is not some clean cut by the numbers exercise. Most times you never fully realize what you set out to do, the way you set out to do it. Battle is a work in progress always, and for each course of action you have to chose from the enemy exercises their franchise to vote.

[quincannon]

How are you going to get to Weir Point Ian? Stipulating that you can get across the river from the timber, which I believe is in some doubt, you must then wait on the eastern shore for the three companies to join up. then you must climb the point where the bluffs are the highest and most rugged in the entire area. Once there, the ground around Weir point would take three or more times your number to defend adequately. Poor ground for defense unless you have a goodly number of defenders, and Reno was fresh out of goodly numbers. He still has that ammunition problem, and he, by going to Weir places himself further away from help, rather than closer. Moving to Weir is an exercise in relocating the site of massacre.

Reno went to the bluffs over Retreat Crossing, and was able to get to the top only because the terrain across from Retreat Crossing forms a notch or V in the bluffs which can be climbed at some speed. Not a lot of speed mind you but some, and certainly more than the bluff terrain to the north or south of that place.

[yanmacca]

True, Weir was too ambitious, in mainly came from posts with Mike, looking at the map , I don't think it was an option, maybe I got mixed up with the riders saw by DeRudio on the bluffs 3411?
But looking at this map, you can see that the bluffs and the gound are not perfect but do get better. The river looks good in places.
I am not sure just where the timber area was which Reno used, maybe it has changed?

At the end of the day, it is an option I have never seen talked about, so maybe it was worth bringing to the table.

[Deleted]

With the proviso, I have not been on the ground, so I will surrender to those who have conducted personal reconnaissance, the climb up the slope looks about the same to me and Weir Point actually looks slightly more gentle. And the round occupied by Weir Point looks to me suited for 3 companies of about 35 men each at 5-10 meter intervals to defend.

Not saying anyone is wrong, not saying I am right. The grid is 1000 meter squares and a 1:24000 map from 2017. Terrain may have changed since 1876, but its only been 144 years, not like Thermopylae which is 2480 years and a lot more erosion. Just saying how it looks on the map to me.

Of course, I still think an attack at Ford B is possible with the same thoughts about not having seen the ground except via map, aerial photograph, and google walk around (which I don't think is accurate enough to form a military opinon.)

Attachments:

[quincannon]

Anything, including an attack at Ford B is possible. Possible, and a good idea, do not always go hand in hand. It is possible for me to enter a dark alley alone, knowing that there are fifteen thugs in that alley who would like nothing better than to beat me to a pulp. Probably not such a good idea though.

Mike do you ever eat Thomas' English Muffins, the one's that brag about all the nooks and crannies? Weir is the Thomas' English Muffins of all the terrain at LBH. It is not defensible with anything less than a regiment. Benteen and Reno both agreed on that. That is why they fell back to Reno Hill.

[benteen]

My opinion on Renos decisions to form a skirmish line, retreat to the timber, and a break out, were the best decisions he or any other Officer could make given the situation the his commander put him in. with that being said......

I asked this question a long time ago and dont recall an answer. If someone did then I forgot and apologize.

In modern times the CO has a radioman attached to his hip. The radio operator goes no where without him. In the early days of the cavalry the trumpeter/ bugler had that chore. During Reno's break out some men didn't get the word. I am sure the cavalry had some kind of bugle call which told the troops of the break out. To my knowledge there was none made. Does anyone know why not? Was the bugler killed? If he wasn't why wasn't he with Reno.

If he was killed, how do you let your battalion know you are going to perform a break out. Do you pass the word? Send messengers to the company Cos? Raise a guidon and wave it.
How do you inform the companies what your planning so everyone is on the same page.

Be Well
Dan

[deadwoodgultch]

Mike you mention that by staying in the timber your flank is protected by the river, or maybe his rear. While that is true, but you fail to mention that there were NA's on the opposite bank firing down into the timber.

Regards,
Tom

[Deleted]

Feb 24, 2021 20:33:09 GMT quincannon said:

Anything, including an attack at Ford B is possible. Possible, and a good idea, do not always go hand in hand. It is possible for me to enter a dark alley alone, knowing that there are fifteen thugs in that alley who would like nothing better than to beat me to a pulp. Probably not such a good idea though.

Mike do you ever eat Thomas' English Muffins, the one's that brag about all the nooks and crannies? Weir is the Thomas' English Muffins of all the terrain at LBH. It is not defensible with anything less than a regiment. Benteen and Reno both agreed on that. That is why they fell back to Reno Hill.

I understand your point of view perfectly.  I even accept you are probably correct.   I just need to go look at the ground for myself.

[Deleted]

Feb 24, 2021 21:58:31 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

Mike you mention that by staying in the timber your flank is protected by the river, or maybe his rear. While that is true, but you fail to mention that there were NA's on the opposite bank firing down into the timber.

Regards,
Tom

That is due to a gap in my knowledge or my memory.  Thanks for bringing it up.

[quincannon]

Dan: Did you ever go on radio silence in the field, knowing or suspecting that if your transmitted during those periods it may tip your hand and let the enemy know what you intended. Same with a trumpeter and trumpet calls. Those folks with feathers might not know what each call meant, but they sure knew they meant something. Nothing under the sun changes in combat Dan, only the toys are different.

Passing the word takes longer, and you can't be sure that everyone gets the word, but in a situation like Reno found himself in, and the surprise he must achieve to have any shred of hope for success, it was the proper thing to tell his trumpeter to stuff the damned thing in his saddlebags, draw his pistol, check his load, and mount up. Terribly inefficient but it worked. Not well but it did work.

Sidebar: Did anyone of those hiding in the timber after Reno departed mention anything about seeing Thompson and Watson. Those two, if the story is true passed by their position. They might have been missed I guess, but I have just never heard of anyone mentioning seeing them.

[colt45]

I have to go with 'break out and head for the ford just used, Ford A'. This would be the natural reaction, that is, go back over ground you are familiar with. That's what Reno did, and all the negatives of that CoA came into play, forcing Reno to cross where he could and get to higher ground.

Limited ammo removes the ability to stay and defend. He could not know how long he might have to defend, or if Benteen or Custer would show up in time. The situation was becoming desperate, and required a desperate action. Hence, breakout asap.

[mac]

I might just add here that the traditional battle formation for the native Americans was a half moon around the enemy flanks. The only time they closed to an envelopment was when they saw they had the numbers to be successful. This was what left the way open to Ford A for Reno but, (and I think Reno could feel this) the warriors were moving to an envelopment as Crazy Horse had arrived. The only way Reno and his men were getting out of that valley alive was in the manner that they did.

I agree with Mike that given the situation Reno did a pretty good job and did not contribute to Custer's disaster to the north.

Cheers

[yanmacca]

After reading some enlightening posts, I have come to the conclusion that Reno's last chance was to get out when M was close to moving to the timber.
If A and G was mounted up, then word should have been given for M to mount up too.
As far as I can see, that was the only real window left for Reno, it wouldn't be long before the main mounted element available to the Indians turned up in the shape of crazy horse, so leaving then may have put them ahead in time scale.
Even five minutes may have been enough to get them clear.