mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Feb 25, 2021 4:59:53 GMT
If I was the Custer, you were Benteen, and AC was Reno, if I wanted you to reinforce Reno, I wouldn't send you a message that says "Come quick. Big village. Bring pacs." It would be "Benteen, Reinforce Reno. Be Quick. Protect pacs." First, as has been said by QC we have no idea what Custer actually said; we assume the note hits the highlights of come on and bring the pacs with you.
As always I am open to change in the face of sound argument but... Mike if you were Custer and sent me that note from around MTC would you, having sent it, then move to Ford D? I think if you were that keen on my assistance you might wait somewhere south of MTC where I may reach you in a timely manner. Might you not call Benteen on knowing that when he reached the Ford A area he would ride to the guns of Reno? Given that Benteen has no idea where Reno or Custer are.
In the big picture the note means little as there was no way Benteen could have reached Custer and thus changed events, but it is still an interesting discussion.
As to what firing Benteen heard from Ford B; the timing would suggest that by the time Benteen is with Reno any approach to Ford B is ancient history. If he hears firing and it is from the Ford B area, it is not Custer near the ford.
Cheers
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2021 10:42:20 GMT
Clearly you and I disagree on what this note means.
Clausewitz said "Everything in war is simple. But the simple is very difficult." Einstein is alleged to have said, "Make everything as simple as possible. Then simplify." And I invoke Occam's razor again.
We do not know what Custer is thinking. We only know what Cooke wrote. Since it is best to keep things simple, we need to assume the order meant exactly what it said. At that time, officers were trained to pay very close attention to what was said to them when they would act as a messenger. I have read, but don't know, this included looking at the speaker very closely to ensure they understood the intent, and the messenger would then repeat the message to ensure he had it right. Since Martini was not a good speaker, we can assume Cooke wanted to be sure the order was properly understood and so wrote it down. Do we know he wrote it down correctly? No. Would a commander choose someone to be his adjutant that was a simpleton? No. He was appointed adjutant in 1871 and remained so until 1876. If he was incompetent, he would most likely been sent back to a troop, regardless of whether or not he was a Custer fan or not.
I do not think a commander would issue an order essentially saying "Come to me" and expect it to be interpreted as "Go to him". Is it possible that Cooke misunderstood? Yes. Is it more likely that Cooke was worried Martini would screw up the message? Yes. Would then Cooke (or anyone) not take steps to make sure the message was clear and concise? Yes.
Now what I find confusing is when Benteen got the message, he apparently did not ask Martini where Custer was and/or if he thought he could find his way back. One would expect a couple things to happen here. One, Benteen would tell Martini to go back to Custer and tell him he was coming (Give him an unwounded horse and he could fairly easily expect to reach Custer before Benteen, but it is unlikely he would have made it back. In fact, I think we ascribe an order from Cooke telling Martini to return if he could do so safely. The only way we could know that is Martini told someone Cooke told him to do it. Two, tell Martini to ride with him and show him the way. Martini was his trumpeter after all, and three, instead of sending him to the back of the column, would have kept him near him, just as a commander today keeps his RTO with him when they are dismounted. What I also find odd, is Benteen would choose someone who didn't speak English very well to be his trumpeter and to send that man to Custer when tasked to provide a messenger. Benteen was not very supportive of Martini in his testimony. I don't think Benteen dawdled.
When Benteen reached Reno, his first question was "Where is Custer?" If he was supposed to go to Reno, then he likely would have said something like, "Reno, Custer ordered me to reinforce you." Should Benteen have moved straight through Reno and continue toward Custer (since Martini knew the way to where he left)? Maybe, maybe not.
As to why Custer would go to Ford D, I have no idea. I would have done one of two things. Attacked at Ford B (I know most of you think that is a non-starter as a COA and I might change my mind when I look at the ground) or defended. It is clear I have stuck my neck on a chopping block. Perhaps five companies on good ground could have held out. There was apparently no good ground and the way those five companies were spread out without mutual support does not indicate a defensive way of thinking.
I think though, that you all are right, when you assert Custer had no intent of attacking at B and he was very offensive minded, so if B was not a good place, he did not want to waste time defending, but instead wanted to try to find another place to attack. Failing in that, he wandered semi-aimlessly in the battle area and was cut up like a piece of sausage. My prediction, however, if Benteen had gone straight to Custer, the entire Regiment would have been destroyed piece by piece in the order Custer, Benteen, Reno regardless of anyone's tactical expertise. Custer's movement toward Ford B and beyond and Benteen's timely arrival at Reno's position saved 7/12ths of the Regiment. Sometimes, even though what you think is very clear, may not be. Allow me to illustrate.
For example, my company was in an assembly area and was essentially in a circle with 360 degree coverage. My HQ tank section was stationed from 11 - 1, one platoon was 1 - 4, another was 4 -7, and the last 7 - 11. HQ and trains was in the center. 12 was north. We entered the assembly area moving from south to north (6 to 12). When it cam time to unstack the assembly area I drew a circle in the dirt, indicated the desired route for our attack, and said, "We will exit the assembly area in the order 1, HQ, 2, 3, trains and move in the direction we were going when we entered," and I pointed to the 12 o'clock position. When we left, 1st, HQ, and 3rd (Infantry) went North, but second went south and took about 45 minutes to join up. Obviously, what I thought was clear and simple was not. (Interestingly enough, though, for the battalion, I was third in the combat column and was to hit a particular point at something like 0915. When I got there, the CO was waiting at the point with his tank and signaled me to stop. I hope off my tank and he asked, "What the hell are you doing here now?" I replied, "Sir, it is 0915. I'm here right when you wanted." He looked at his watch, and said "Roger. Did you see A or D?" "No." "You are leading the attack. Get going."
In another exercise, I as a captain was the nighttime watch officer in the 1st Infantry Division's tactical command post. For a variety of reasons, the G-3 (Operations Officer, an LTC), Chief of Staff (COL), Assistant Division Commander (BG), Deputy G3 (MAJ), and the CG (MG) were all asleep in their quarters at Fort Hood (where the exercise was taking place.) The G-3 had been bitten by a Brown Recluse and was hors de combat. The senior officer in the Main Command Post was the Division Chemical Officer, an LTC. We were starting an attack when the OPFOR hit us with 9 - 12 nukes hitting the four leading battalions of the division , reducing them to about 1/3rd strength and then threw an Operational Maneuver Group into the gap of almost divisional size, as I recall. I was a little out of my element here, so I called up the Chemical Officer in the Main asking for guidance. I wanted to attack, but the correlation of forces did not seem in my favor. He said to me, "I don't know Mike. Do what you want." A little aghast, I went back and talked to the G2 guy (a major) who really had nothing to say. I then tried to call up my boss, a Major who was off shift. We didn't have telephones in our quarters there, and the phone just rang and rang. I tried to call the G3 and Deputy. Same Deal. Next, Secretary of the General Staff. No answer. Chief of Staff. Nope. ADC's aide. Nope. ADC. Nope. CG's Aide. Nope. I balked at calling the CG. So I made a decision and assumed the defense and published a fragmentary order going over to the defense. We actually defeated the OMG and I verbally ordered the division to resume the attack, but forgot to enter it in the log, publish a written order, and inform corps.
At shift change, the place was in an uproar. The ADC was up front and said, "Chief, you need to investigate what happened here." I spoke up and said, "General, you don't need to investigate, I made the decision, and here is how I came to it." Explained the whole thing, but left out the bit about the chemical officer. He looked at me for a bit and said, "Captain Robel, you exceeded your authority. You can't change a Corps order like that. But I admire your integrity and understand why you did it. But it was wrong." I got the last word with a hearty "Yes, General." and nothing more was said.
However, I guess I made some impression, a couple-three years later, he asked all the officers of the Brigade if we had seen a memo on training from him. There was silence for a bit, and I spoke up and said, "No General. I have not." He looked over and said, "Stand up!" So I did, and then he said, "Oh. It's you...Gentlemen, that is integrity for you." I figured I was about to be toast. The Brigade Commander and all the battalion commander's looked at him with stupefied faces and the BDE CDR said, "Sir, I have to find that memo." I figured I was in for a big ass chewing. Instead, the BDE CO and my BN CO came over and congratulated me for my courage and integrity.
The point of these stories is not to show how great a guy I am, because I am probably just a somewhat above average retired Army officer - a nobody -, but to illustrate just how difficult it is to be clear and concise in battle communications, even in peacetime training, when there are no lives on the line. The lessons to me were always to write the clearest possible mission statement I could and to always phrase it in terms of Who, What, When, Where, and Why, such as "TF 2-37 Armor defends in sector at <time-date group) from <place) to <place> to <place> to <place> to destroy the <enemy description>, then counterattack and eject him from our sector."
I think you are reading too much into the message; you are holding onto your position as tenaciously as a Pit Bull, and I am incapable of communicating simply and effectively enough to amass enough evidence to affect your conclusion. Therefore I am going to move onto DP 12.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 25, 2021 12:00:12 GMT
Clearly both sides of this issue make their points, and it is unlikely either side will move one millimeter off of the dime they stand on.
What the note says is of little to no consequence, no more than what is in the trash in this morning's scheduled pick up. What matters is how the note was understood. I would submit that the note was understood by Benteen to mean - Come forward, cover the movement of the trains, but make sure they are following your (Benteen's) trail, keeping between them and any possible hostile force, and join the rest of the regiment. Up until the time he was waved in the direction of the bluffs he had every reason to believe the regiment, the other two battalions, were in the valley, and it was then his intention to lead his battalion across Ford A, as the trail indicated, and come up from due south of where he expected the regiment to be. That in his mind would fulfill doing what the note said to do "Come on"
That's why modern orders contain Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How. That modern precept is based upon the mistakes of the past when operational, and fragmentary orders followed no format, and were generally (when reading them) a shit sandwich with a tiny bit of edible cheese cacooned in the middle.
The general commanding sends his compliments and asks you nicely to drop your pants and take a crap in the woods, somewhere, if you feel that is practicable, and the time has arrived at the window of your daily defecation routine, unless your bowels seem to be in a bit of disorder this morning. In such case you may eat your breakfast, then delay an hour or so in the execution of this directive, which you are not obligated to follow unless you wish. In either case the general commanding will not object, but no deviation from this order will be tolerated, unless you think it is wise to do so based upon your own judgment and proximity to the enemy, lest he catch you with your pants down. Your Obedient Servant Jubilation T. Cornpone, Captain, Hottentot Horse Guards, Adjutant
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2021 14:30:55 GMT
quincannon your second paragraph is an excellent analysis, invoking the simplicity of the order with a good feel for its likely intent and interpretation of the recipients analysis.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 25, 2021 15:26:25 GMT
Perception is Reality.
It does not matter what the note meant to the person who writes the note. What matters is the perception of the person who receives the note, and what he thinks the note means.
It is the same with verbal orders. You will be supported by the whole outfit, obviously was perceived by Reno to mean that Custer was coming up right behind him. We know that by the way Reno acted after receiving the order.
When someone is not clear or complete by the content of his orders or direction, then you can hardly fault the person receiving the order. The blame must fall on the person giving/sending the order. In an ideal situation the person giving the order asks the receiver - do you understand. If so, tell me what I just told you to do. The battlefield is less than ideal, and anyone maintaining that notion should immediately dismiss it from their conscience thoughts.
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Post by Beth on Feb 25, 2021 17:02:36 GMT
I apologize, no insult was intended. But sometimes there is not a right way, it is just the best thing you can do under the circumstances. No insult was taken. I have been putting out 'fires' all week and perhaps it makes me a bit short tempered for which I apologize to you and the entire list.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2021 17:17:44 GMT
No problem Beth. I am in perilous straits myself at the moment what with plumbing and now a 2018 tax bill for 4400. Geese.
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Post by Beth on Feb 25, 2021 21:13:20 GMT
At least I can see the end of the tunnel. We are having problems getting the basics to restock the frig but we are able to get food through delivery services (Gets expensive). I know there will be hiccups along the way (we have lost most of our landscaping and don't know yet about irrigation. We will have to wait and see about our trees. All things are fixable once we took care of basics: heat, water and food)
I am sorry that you are also in a similar boat. Sometimes we get so busy bailing the rising waters on our own side of the boat that we fail to see that others are bailing as well. Hopefully we can offer you as much support you need. We have a huge pool of experiences to draw from after all. Remember. we are more than just a message board we are sort of like family, we may not always see eye to eye over issues but we know that we have more things that unite us than divide.
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Post by Beth on Feb 25, 2021 21:33:11 GMT
I will be going through this thread and moving items out that don't belong in a few days. I did not intend to take it over with my own dramas
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2021 21:50:18 GMT
Well, it is a SPECIAL DECISION POINT and yours certainly had decisions. I'm content to leave it as it is. Oops. Wrong thread. You can move them to the Special Decision Point thread.
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mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Feb 26, 2021 1:41:56 GMT
Mike I am happy with what QC has had to say above. My main problem with the note is not the note itself but that people try to read it as Custer ordering Benteen to bring up ammunition and men asap, it does not say that. I can happily accept your interpretation especially as you acknowledge that Benteen complied as well as he could in the circumstance. Again I enjoy the discussion. The Martini business is a frustration in so many ways.
Cheers
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 27, 2021 21:25:35 GMT
Steve, I do not doubt that Custer learned of the complete extent of the village. The only thing I question is did he learn of it before or after the note was sent. If it was before then it is quite logical for him to want Benteen and the trains to follow Reno into the valley, for the reasons I stated above. If he knew how far the village actually extended before the note was sent, then that would be quite different in regards to the intent of the actions he wished to be taken. Were this latter true though, having just traversed this very ground where he expected Benteen and the trains to follow, he would also know that he could have no expectation of the early arrival of help, which in turn would place limitations on what he could do, or what he might get away with doing. I believe Martin was sent back at 600 yards from Ford B. He describes the route. I rode this same route with my Crow Friend and it crosses drainages. You focus on Weir on the east side right where Cedar and Middle are separated by the cut below Weir. I think he could see to the north but not all that was up against the river. A interesting discovery for me in rereading Benteen is that he states the village was divided. That is what I believe from what the Cheyennes are telling me that it would appear from the south.With regard to shots being heard from the Ford B area. Greasy Grass Ridge is in that area, and we know there was firing from that location because of artifacts found there. Hearing a shot does not tell the listener who did the shooting. Further is does not tell the listener if there was any return fire, indicative of a close range skirmish. In addition those shots could have also been coming from F-F Ridge which is also in the Ford B area. You know as well as I that depending upon sound as a basis for determining a finite location is an iffy proposition. I agree and the dB noise-level could be covered by conversation. Splitting does not mean anyone went to Ford B. It simply means they split for reasons now unknown and unknowable. Next time we are walking through the woods you and I, and I point out to you a hornet's nest, I assume that you would take my word for a hornet's nest being present, and find no overriding need to make a close investigation of the matter. Curly sees the gray horses go toward Ford B. Martin is sent back from around 600 yards from Ford B. Thompson's viewscape from the river would include that area in MTC. The Sioux have a drawing of the gray horse heading north from the same area and show other troopers moving north close to battle ridge. I think Custer needs to actually look at ford to see if it usable. I think the last fording place south of Cemetery Ridge had some action outside of the travel lines that Maguire drew. The term volley in that day was the opinion of the beholder. To one man a couple of shots may indicate a volley, while to another it would not, just a few shots. Volley was a widely used term in those days for any number of shots being fired, but it was not in universal use, so one man's volley, might be another's scattered shooting. Words have meaning, but first it must be determined how the person who said those words meant them, and we don't know that. Agreed from a distance three shots separated in a short time could sound like volley fire.
Regards
Steve
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