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Post by yanmacca on Feb 24, 2021 13:35:13 GMT
Just adding another scenario, was there another way out of that timber? Could they feed across the river and move back on the eastern bank? Reno had a fifteen man recon team with two officers, why didn't Reno send detail of Varnum and Hare, to find a route though the timber and river. Once a route was found, they could move company at a time, leaving one company to cover. The last company could set fire to the brush to mask their pull out.
I realise that this is a long shot and any move like this should be done before crazy horse turns up.
Just an option not mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 13:48:28 GMT
Well, I think most of Reno's scouts had moved off. Don't know if the river was fordable at that point, but its flat and the slopes up to Weir Point are more gentle than Reno Hill. Benteen thought Weir Point was not defensible, but it is the highest ground for a bit. Setting the timber of fire may have provided a useful smoke screen.
I think Reno probably did as well as anyone could, except maybe Alexander the Great. I don't think we know if he really selected the route and position he did or if he just blindly took off and lucked out by getting to where he ended up.
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2021 15:24:00 GMT
Beth, then I submit, you are over thinking. On the other hand, QC, AZ, and others were trained to do that. Its perfectly okay to just say, I'll just vote the historical outcome. No one is going to die today based on your decision. Perhaps I should introduce you to wargames. Do you live near Dallas? I have a friend there ... But he's a little crazy. He is currently doing all of D-Day at the platoon level. Actually, he is a lot crazy. The game I am working on now is the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment covering force battle in the Fulda Gap at the company (US) and battalion (Soviet) level and it only has a 1000 counters or so and the map is five feet square. He needs his whole living room. Previously, he did they battle of Kursk. I assure you that I am not overthinking. There is a difference between understanding the right way and the way you wish things could be. You take your stand then deal with the next thing item. Life is just an extended flow chart.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 15:26:44 GMT
I apologize, no insult was intended. But sometimes there is not a right way, it is just the best thing you can do under the circumstances.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 24, 2021 16:04:25 GMT
As far as I know Mike, both Varnum and Hare made into the timber along with the scout group. I have a lot of the names of the fifteen or so men from that group, they operated on Reno's left and where a little more forward from the main group. As far as I know, this group was made up of two officers, NCOs and EMs.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2021 17:14:17 GMT
Is there anyone that needs reminding that Custer did not write the note to Benteen? Cooke wrote that note, and as such we don't know if the note accurately portrayed Custer's wishes or not. We know the note was written in extreme haste, by how the note itself is constructed. Did not Captain Nolan carry such a directive at Balaclava, and I think we all remember how that turned out. The Light Brigade went the wrong way, toward the wrong objective. Haste is to be avoided in battle, and it is to be equally avoided in transmitting an order, lest there be any chance of that order being misinterpreted. Haste and speed are two different things.
Reno's problem in the timber was not one of position. His position was defensible, for an extended period of time. Reno's problem was ammunition. Had each of his companies had a couple of mules each, carrying additional ammunition, I suspect Reno may have chosen to hold that area until relieved. That would have been the smart thing to do. He did not have those two mules per company, nor the ammunition they would have carried. Given that his ammunition expenditure was probably at fifty percent of his basic load already, he was in dire straits. Yes he could have kept up the fire until the rest was gone, but "what then". Commanders must think of what then, as much as they think about "what now"
Why do you think Martini was chosen to be sent Mike? He could not speak English well enough to give you the time of day. At that portion of his career he was looked upon due to the tenor of the times as little more than useless baggage, a "Sad Sack" if you will. Martini had no way of knowing what Custer's future intentions were once Martini left him, nor did he have any means of acceptably articulating such information to Benteen if he did know. So follow Martini back does not solve the problem. In fact it may make the problem worse.
Reinforce success, starve failure, an excellent precept. The only fly in that glass of buttermilk is that there was no success to reinforce. Reno certainly had not met success, and Custer, main effort or not, had not met any success at the time the note was sent. Some of his people had most probably chased Wolf Tooth off when the note was sent, but that small action was certainly not sufficient to place a demand on the regimental trains.
Unlike Custer, my house is easy to find out here on the prairie, but the only booze is half a bottle of single malt scotch left over from Christmas, and I don't share.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 17:15:21 GMT
I thought, probably incorrectly, most but not all, we’re chasing horses.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2021 17:57:50 GMT
I am not so sure you are incorrect about chasing horses Mike. I suspect that those scouts felt they had fulfilled their obligation to Custer of finding, and they were then bent on collecting what they considered the fruits of their labor.
Back to the note. I am fairly well convinced that when Cooke sent Martini with the note he had written, that it was still Custer's intention to cross the river at Ford B, and get behind the village. Don't know that for sure, but no one else does either. The "big village" in the note could mean that he had seen the extent of the village north of Ford B, but not necessarily. It could have still been a big village, even if had stopped at Ford B.
So, if what I believe is correct, then the proper course of action would have been for Custer to cross at B, and Benteen and the trains to cross at A and join with Custer and Reno in the valley, and not have Benteen, and the trains take the long way around and come up behind Custer. It is not only the note. It is how one must judge Custer's intentions, and the terrain associated with those intentions.
Had Reno stayed in the timber, and had Benteen followed Custer, there would not have been one last stand site, but three.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 24, 2021 18:41:28 GMT
Withdrawing by bounds before being flanked is the right decision, if made in a timely fashion. We know falling back to the timber was a move that was not good for a long period of time, as he had to retreat shortly after entering the timber. The key would have been Reno making the withdrawal decision before being forced to move into the timber, which occurred after his flank was turned. Colt Exactly!!! Sgt Ryan tells us the Indians were just about to surround them and that they should have left the timber earlier. I see lots of posters state Reno should have ordered a rear guard. I can not understand how they could think that way. The Indians were 360 degrees. What makes them think the Indians would all try to move to rear and in front of a rear guard action. We know some got way ahead and crossed the river in front of the command. We know others were on each flank. We know the rear of the command in 30 seconds would be sufficient distance for the Indians to move to the rear.
They point to what Godfrey did. Godfrey had Indians coming from one direction and they were holding or slowing their progress. He protected the rear of the command moving toward Reno Hill.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 24, 2021 18:43:48 GMT
I apologize, no insult was intended. But sometimes there is not a right way, it is just the best thing you can do under the circumstances. Agreed A long time ago one of military posters stated an officer should make the best choice. Another officer clarified as the best available choice. He also said sometimes the dragon wins.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Feb 24, 2021 19:08:23 GMT
I am not so sure you are incorrect about chasing horse Mike. I suspect that those scouts felt they had fulfilled their obligation to Custer of finding, and they were then bent on collecting what they considered the fruits of their labor. Back to the note. I am fairly well convinced that when Cooke sent Martini with the note he had written, that it was still Custer's intention to cross the river at Ford B, and get behind the village. Don't know that for sure, but no one else does either. The "big village" in the note could mean that he had seen the extent of the village north of Ford B, but not necessarily. It could have still been a big village, even if had stopped at Ford B. So, if what I believe is correct, then the proper course of action would have been for Custer to cross at B, and Benteen and the trains to cross at A and join with Custer and Reno in the valley, and not have Benteen, and the trains take the long way around and come up behind Custer. It is not only the note. It is how one must judge Custer's intentions, and the terrain associated with those intentions. Had Reno stayed in the timber, and had Benteen followed Custer, there would not have been one last stand site, but three. I think Custer knew the village extended past Ford B. I believe Curly in that the command was split going into MTC and the artifacts and accounts support that. That would show his intent to move further north. On another board we were discussing how many tipis Benteen saw. I have read Benteen's testimony several times but missed where he saw the village and that it was divided: "That was the firing I tried to describe I heard after my arrival there; 15 or 20 shots that seemed to have come from about the ford "B", about the central part of the villager, The village was in two divisions; and at the ford "B" was about the place where I heard the shots, and all I heard that were not in sight, were from that direction. I have heard, as a matter of course, officers disputing amongst themselves about hearing volleys, I heard no volleys." Regards Steve
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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2021 19:31:19 GMT
Steve, I do not doubt that Custer learned of the complete extent of the village. The only thing I question is did he learn of it before or after the note was sent. If it was before then it is quite logical for him to want Benteen and the trains to follow Reno into the valley, for the reasons I stated above. If he knew how far the village actually extended before the note was sent, then that would be quite different in regards to the intent of the actions he wished to be taken. Were this latter true though, having just traversed this very ground where he expected Benteen and the trains to follow, he would also know that he could have no expectation of the early arrival of help, which in turn would place limitations on what he could do, or what he might get away with doing.
With regard to shots being heard from the Ford B area. Greasy Grass Ridge is in that area, and we know there was firing from that location because of artifacts found there. Hearing a shot does not tell the listener who did the shooting. Further is does not tell the listener if there was any return fire, indicative of a close range skirmish. In addition those shots could have also been coming from F-F Ridge which is also in the Ford B area. You know as well as I that depending upon sound as a basis for determining a finite location is an iffy proposition.
Splitting does not mean anyone went to Ford B. It simply means they split for reasons now unknown and unknowable. Next time we are walking through the woods you and I, and I point out to you a hornet's nest, I assume that you would take my word for a hornet's nest being present, and find no overriding need to make a close investigation of the matter.
The term volley in that day was the opinion of the beholder. To one man a couple of shots may indicate a volley, while to another it would not, just a few shots. Volley was a widely used term in those days for any number of shots being fired, but it was not in universal use, so one man's volley, might be another's scattered shooting. Words have meaning, but first it must be determined how the person who said those words meant them, and we don't know that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 19:41:17 GMT
Argh. The note. Intent. No one knew his intent except Custer and it appears he didn't explain it very clearly to Cooke. Or Cooke didn't understand and didn't make Custer explain himself again. Maybe I'm an idiot, but the intent of the note is clear. Benteen. Come to me. Out. Custer doesn't even know if Reno is retreating to the timber or getting brains splashed all over him at this point.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2021 20:27:11 GMT
Oh, I don't dispute that the intent of the note was to bring Benteen up with the trains covered. That is not in question at all. What is in question is how and by what route Benteen was to accomplish it. There are two ways, across Ford A and up the valley intending to meet both Custer and Reno. Then there is the other way, the same one everyone supposes is the intent of the note. You cannot be expecting for anyone to come anywhere unless you know where anywhere is. Had I received that note, and heard the firing i the valley, I would have crossed at A and come up behind Reno, expecting Custer to either be with Reno or to arrive shortly thereafter.
The whole thing would have been much different had Cooke sent the note from Battle Ridge. Then there would be no doubt at all what the intent of the note was, maybe not to Benteen, but certainly we would know.
You assume, by the brains splashed all over comment, that Custer does not know Reno is in trouble when the note is sent. I'll buy that completely, but sending for Benteen with the expectation that he will cross at A,and up the valley does not require Custer to know Reno is in trouble. It only means that up the valley is the quickest way to join two battalions together, along with the anticipated arrival of the third battalion.
None of these fellows were mind readers. The only one who knew Custer's intentions, and what his situational awareness was was Custer. This whole affair was a disaster waiting to happen from the moment dispatched Benteen to the left earlier in the day. It became worse as the day progressed. I know you have received orders that were less than clear, that left you wondering what the intent of the message was. I sure have, but the difference in our collective experience, and those of Benteen, was you and I could pick up a phone and ask, and Benteen could not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 21:58:30 GMT
All True.
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