Decision Point 6

[Deleted]

DP	Who	Timeline	Location	Local Time	Clock Time	Event
6	Custer	H, I, K, N	Middle Knoll DD: -107.378 45.503 MGRS: 13TCL14234152	1222	1319	Custer hears Cooke's report and makes the fatal decision to try and get to the Northern end of the village. HE swings command to the right and orders a gallop.

Girard tells Cooke about the Indians coming out against Reno and there is a lot of them. Cooke says, Okay, I'll let the Colonel know. Girard rides back to the Scouts and Reno.
Cooke Informs Custer.

Two additional messengers follow with the same information.

***Course of Action 1***
Go to the Right.
Advantages
1. Indians are fixed by Reno.
2. The high ground will protect us from observation from the River.
3. Risk destruction of Reno
4. Flanking the Indians may still enable me to trap and capture hostages.

Disadvantages
1. Still is not sure location, size, or strength of Village but Scouts have all said its big.
2. Surprise is probably lost
3. Not sure of ford locations.

Course of Action 2
Commit the Regiment.
Advantages
1. Will free all the Indians to attack the Regiment.
2. The scouts all say there are fords through the river to the north.

Disadvantages
1. If the enemy is present in large numbers, we may become surrounded. If Reno takes too long in getting here, he will have a hard time breakng through.
2. Villagers will get away.

I am reusing COA 2 from CP 6 as it shows its coption.  COA 1 is go to the right.  COA 2 is reinforce Reno



Discussion and comparison of COAs.
Whatever I do, I need to get Benteen up here and expedite the Train's movement. I want him to follow the Regiment's Trail and reinforce Reno if necessary, otherwise he is to follow me.
The Indian's always run, why aren't they. But that’s good for me, too because it means the village has probably not started its move.
Send a messenger to Reno telling him to keep the enemy fixed.

Recommendation.   COA 2:  Commit the rest of the Regiment.
The sight of the rest of the Regiment coming up on Reno's Left may cause them to panic.  If we break through, we might get into the village and be able to cause all sorts of mischief.  Send my fastest horse and rider to tell Reno we are on the way.  Now's the time to go for broke.  If I don't go, I'll probably lose Reno and why didn't I listen to Benteen?
  Send the Sergeant Major to get Benteen and bring him up to the river edge to establish a fall back position.

[quincannon]

Given only those two choices, Course of Action 2 is the only way to go.

I like the idea of putting the scare into them by seeing the regiment come up behind Reno. The whole goddamned Army could be behind Reno for all the Indians know, and I would not wish to relieve them of that notion.

If I get surrounded later in the day as long as I have reunited the regiment along with the trains - so what.  Kill more Indians that way. What was that expression - Oh yes - "They got us surrounded, the poor bastards"

The objective should not be a decisive victory, but rather a tactical victory where you can hold a position south of the village complex. The Indians can't withdraw east. The country is too broken for making any speed. They can't go north, Terry is coming from the north. They can't go west. The west is Crow Country. That leaves only southwest toward the Big Horns, and you retaining position south of the village takes that avenue of withdrawal away from them. I don't think Custer thought as I do, but he goddamned well should have.

Hostage talking is for little girls in pink panties, and thugish uncaring brutes. Soldiers either kill the enemy, or give them little choice but to give up their wicked ways.

[Deleted]

Proposing a 3rd COA is certainly within the rules. I think I could edit the poll to add it.

[Beth]

I would propose a 3rd for Custer to flank(I think that is the right term) to Reno's left. If the village is before Reno, then moving to the left would allow Custer to travel faster. Question are we assuming that each point would be what Custer is at that point. Not for example having sent Benteen off on his scout? If he still had Benteen then he could send Benteen left and go up the bluff.

[Deleted]

Last question first. What I am doing here is restricting my choices as to what Custer could do based on his prior decisions, so in this case, Benteen is off scouting, hence my "why didn't I listen to Benteen?" comment.

I don't think specifying which side Custer comes up on requires a separate course of action. He has three choices: He come up on the left, he can come up on the right, or he can come up on both sides. That decision doesn't have to be made yet, what's important is he either decides to attack with Reno or go off on an explore. A third COA would be to order Reno to fall back while Custer defends along the river. Of course you have to decide what side of the river it is you want to defend. Their side or your side. You can start off on their side to allow Reno to pass through and set up to cover you while you cross the river. Or you can set up on your side and cover reno as he comes back. Both are hard. Especially with 1,000+ warriors following you.

But yes, coming up on Reno's left provides you maneuver room and perhaps you can turn THEIR right and really chew them up. However, charging into the midst of them would not be advisable. Instead. Form a skirmish line and push forward by alternate companies.

Good question Beth and a good decision.

[benteen]

Mike,
I will vote, but let me run this by you. Why not a show of force and ask them to surrender. They know Crook is in the south and yes they drove him back but he could be coming again. They see your force, and if I had to guess they knew about Terry. Perhaps they may think "whats the  they use in fighting any more" they (soldiers) will  just keep coming. All we will do by fighting will be to delay the inevitable and get more of our people killed. "The greatest victory is that which requires no battle"...Sun Tzu

Let me say I would not fight (unless I had to) with tired men and horses. However, if that is the case and I have to fight then I take COA2 Commit the entire regiment. Dont overthink it just hit them and hit them hard. Perhaps 2 waves, first with 5 companies, second with 4 including HQ. 2 In reserve and 1 with the supplies. Just crash into them. Give them no time to form up. Make them fight as individuals or small groups, take away their ability to communicate to make some kind of organized stance against you. Make them have to take care of their families, another words cause complete havoc.

Be Well
Dan

[benteen]

Feb 4, 2021 22:11:13 GMT benteen said:

Mike,
I will vote, but let me run this by you. Why not a show of force and ask them to surrender. They know Crook is in the south and yes they drove him back but he could be coming again. They see your force, and if I had to guess they knew about Terry. Perhaps they may think "whats the  they use in fighting any more" they (soldiers) will  just keep coming. All we will do by fighting will be to delay the inevitable and get more of our people killed. "The greatest victory is that which requires no battle"...Sun Tzu

Let me say I would not fight (unless I had to) with tired men and horses. However, if that is the case and I have to fight then I take COA2 Commit the entire regiment. Dont overthink it just hit them and hit them hard. Perhaps 2 waves, first with 5 companies, second with 4 including HQ. 2 In reserve and 1 with the supplies. Just crash into them. Give them no time to form up. Make them fight as individuals or small groups, take away their ability to communicate to make some kind of organized stance against you. Make them have to take care of their families, another words cause complete havoc.

Be Well
Dan

[mac]

Feb 4, 2021 20:47:52 GMT @mikerobel said:

I don't think specifying which side Custer comes up on requires a separate course of action. He has three choices: He come up on the left, he can come up on the right, or he can come up on both sides. That decision doesn't have to be made yet, what's important is he either decides to attack with Reno or go off on an explore. Mike an explore in my opinion is, in effect at least, what he was doing.
A third COA would be to order Reno to fall back while Custer defends along the river. Of course you have to decide what side of the river it is you want to defend. Their side or your side. You can start off on their side to allow Reno to pass through and set up to cover you while you cross the river. Or you can set up on your side and cover reno as he comes back. Both are hard. Especially with 1,000+ warriors following you.This is basically, but obviously not in location,  the idea of our 5 companies to Ford D explanation.

But yes, coming up on Reno's left provides you maneuver room and perhaps you can turn THEIR right and really chew them up. However, charging into the midst of them would not be advisable. Instead. Form a skirmish line and push forward by alternate companies.

Coming in close contact with them is always the endgame for Custer in this battle!

[quincannon]

I do declare. You have shown remarkable insight here Dan. People who are successful in the business of combat hate the thought of it. They are repelled by death and destruction. The thoughtful practitioner of the military arts and sciences out think, before they try to outfight. They look for what motivates, and what does not motivate the adversary. They take a deep dive into their adversaries culture, before they buckle on their spurs and mount up. Anyone with an ounce of sense, and gravitas of purpose, knows that for an Indian, the family is so sacred, the centerpiece of their tribal life, that they would do anything for the family's security.

So like any true Marine, when forced to wage war, you advocate catching them on their back foot, and beating their goddamned brains out. Good for you. Stick with it old son, they may yet make you Commandant Emeritus.

I do note however that you became so fond of your own words that you decided to quote yourself. Reminds me a bit of Sam Houston who always referred to himself in the third person, and insisted on quoting himself. Hell they may make you President of Texas, unless you are very, very careful. You were at San Jacinto weren't you? I thought so. All of which reminds me of the time I was at Valley Forge with George. In fact it was not Von Steuben that tutored the boys in buff and blue, it was me.  I taught that rabble everything they know. Von Steuben only said he did on Fox News, and they believed him. 

[Deleted]

Feb 4, 2021 22:11:13 GMT benteen said:

Mike,
I will vote, but let me run this by you. Why not a show of force and ask them to surrender. They know Crook is in the south and yes they drove him back but he could be coming again. They see your force, and if I had to guess they knew about Terry. Perhaps they may think "whats the  they use in fighting any more" they (soldiers) will  just keep coming. All we will do by fighting will be to delay the inevitable and get more of our people killed. "The greatest victory is that which requires no battle"...Sun Tzu

Let me say I would not fight (unless I had to) with tired men and horses. However, if that is the case and I have to fight then I take COA2 Commit the entire regiment. Dont overthink it just hit them and hit them hard. Perhaps 2 waves, first with 5 companies, second with 4 including HQ. 2 In reserve and 1 with the supplies. Just crash into them. Give them no time to form up. Make them fight as individuals or small groups, take away their ability to communicate to make some kind of organized stance against you. Make them have to take care of their families, another words cause complete havoc.

Be Well
Dan

That's pretty interesting, especially since Sitting Bull handed his shield to his son and said to see if they wanted to talk peace.  I think though, he might not be in the mood to do it now that the fight is on.

[colt45]

CoA2. Full regiment into the valley. Reno in advance, Custer close behind, probably to go left and get to the Indians' right flank. Benteen follows behind and is applied where the most success if occurring. Remember, don't feed failure. Follow up on where there is success. Trains cross over to the valley side of the river and remain behind everyone else at a safe distance, either to continue to follow as action permits or to setup in a defensible location.

[yanmacca]

Beth mentioned about the line of bluffs, now these bluffs edge all the way to Cemetery hill apart from ford B and a few smaller points like deep ravine and Gibbons ford, apart from the bluffs we also have the river too with of course trees.

Where I am going here is these obstacles will be in the back of the village if the full regimental attack was done through the valley, as the regiment fanned out along the western side of the village, this would mean that the village was hemmed up against this line of natural obstacles.

Would fighting with the river and bluffs to their backs make a difference to the warriors?

They would be stretched too with a longer defense line, but lets look at how the defenders did on that day, we have the initial groups who built up against Reno, then we have Crazy Horse and his band and last but not least, the main bulk of Cheyenne which were still active to the north, if the bands which stopped Reno defended that area, that would mean that CH would have to fill in behind them in a dog leg shape. When the Cheyenne got going, they would naturally line up on CHs right flank.

So the army would still be faced with a defense line which will use the terrain in their favour. So any ride through Georgia would have to be fought for.
The army has one big advantage though, their mobility, so capturing the horse herd would be paramount.

[yanmacca]

I think Custer acted on impulse when he went right, up to that point I have not read any evidence that he had planned this move beforehand. This move was done is such haste that maybe even Cooke knew nothing about it. The distance and time calculations would be unknown to him and even though Bouyer had an idea, the size of the village would be unknown to him too, so really he was riding blind, if he comes off he is the hero, if not then he will feel like a jackass in a Texas hailstorm.

[quincannon]

Ian: The only way that you could deliberately back the Indians up to the river and the bluffs behind it would be to attack from the west. An attack from the south is always going to allow the Indians to form at least some sort of line of battle facing south.

An attack from the west means that if it is really going to be effective Custer's own line must be somewhere between two and a half and three miles long. He did not have that amount of combat power. He would also have to figure out a way to get through that pony herd without losing cohesion. There is the possibility of driving the pony herd into the villages from the west, but that is a risky proposition, and if it did not go just right, or the horses, not Custer, decided on where they wanted to go, the whole enterprise may backfire.

A flanking movement around the Indian right, by its very nature would not pin the villages against the bluffs and river. Any flank attack would be much too shallow. You would pin some warriors certainly, but not enough to make a difference. I am not against flanking attacks, and I suspect that some movement around the Indian right would be in the cards during this battle, but such an attack would be more to unhinge the Indian battle line than anything else. That in itself is a good thing.

Custer's failings can be summed up in very simple terms. Instead of eating the apple one bite at a time, he attempted to swallow the apple whole, and choked to death on it.

Going back to Dan's thoughtful post above, and his reminder that he has read Sun Tzu and heeded the Master's lessons, I think there is an alternative to fighting, or at least trying to avoid a fight. There is a piece of easily defensible high ground to the rear and southwest of Reno's skirmish line. What is the objective --- Bring about a solution that will return the Indian Confederation to the reservation. By occupation of that high ground, and letting the Indians know that you are there and are watching their every move, you have effective removed the Indian option of moving southwest into the Big Horns. Terry has a blocking force to the Indian's north. To the west is Crow Country and neither the Sioux or Cheyenne are going to venture there, no matter how many warriors they have. The Crow have more, and the Crow's allies have even more. The easterly direction is a non-starter. The country is too broken for fast travel, and invites pursuit where the pursuer is a hell of a lot faster than the pursued. So that leaves two choices for the Indians attack that high ground and lose a hell of a lot of people in the process with scant chances of success, or give up and make peace. They are not going to conduct a successful break out.

[benteen]

Chuck,

Thank you for the kind words, I knew it would be you that would find out my alias is Sun Tzu, just like years ago you knew that St Clair was a women  (Inside joke folks)

Be Well
Dan