|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 30, 2021 14:07:39 GMT
Get any more brass on this site, I will weigh it in "LOL"
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 30, 2021 14:09:21 GMT
Before I trawls though my notes, was Herendeen asked to testify at the RCOI?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 30, 2021 15:14:45 GMT
Dan: Doctrine is something like traveling down a narrow one way (but two lane) road through the Everglades. You have swamps on both sides of the road. Down the middle of the narrow road, there is a bright yellow line. You have the choice to travel in the middle of the road with that yellow line between your wheels. Those that do, don't make many mistakes, but the enemy knows just how they will operate, and can prepare for their arrival. On the other hand those that travel the road with a little more confidence in their own abilities might choose to travel in either the right or left hand lanes. Doing so will prevent the predictability present with those that travel in the center, but the cautionary tale is don't venture too far to the right or left, lest you land your sorry ass in the swamp.
You have to know doctrine cold, before you attempt to vary its application.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 30, 2021 15:58:38 GMT
The Indians would have a fair idea on how the army worked in the field. They always tried to avoid them until they felt that they had the advantage.
I would guess that if Custer rested and attacked on the 26th, that the chances of over 600 men with hundred's of animals, staying out of sight would be a big task.
Custer may have been paranoid over being detected and with good cause too.
The idea was that the village would scatter, but wouldnt it be more benificial for a village this size to stay together? Once they split into tribes and moved shop, wouldn't they be more vulnerable?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 30, 2021 16:12:08 GMT
Of course they would know how the Army worked in the field. If you were an Indian, and the Army was trying to kill you, wouldn't you?
Staying out of sight. Would not think it would be all that hard. Some of the success though would depend on Custer's counter-reconnaissance efforts.
If Custer was paranoid about being detected he was a fool. You accept what the enemy is capable of doing without being overly afraid of their capabilities. A smart guy takes actions that would mitigate detection. Counter-reconnaissance is one of those measures. The Indians may know you are out there somewhere, but somewhere is not specific enough to act upon.
I concur. That village agglomeration was not going to scatter when the enemy, Crook, Terry, and Custer were known to be in the field and on the prowl. Mass has an associated degree of security.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 30, 2021 17:49:39 GMT
Ah but that was the biggest fear of the army, they wanted to catch them all in one go and round them up.
I suppose that the will to fight and the large numbers, caught the army off guard.
Of course I would want to know my enemy inside out, only a fool would take any adversary for granted.
Look at the Apaches and how they strung out the army.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 30, 2021 18:11:01 GMT
Like most fears Ian, they should be evaluated for what they are, and most, like the one you mentioned, turn out to be nonsense. Never be pay any attention to fear. You never get a damned thing done that way.
If they were caught off guard, then the Army and its commanders were goddamned fools, more qualified to be shoveling shit then wearing rank on their collars.
Take them for granted and you will die, and that is one thing you can take for granted.
The Apache and Comanche made the Sioux and Cheyenne look like little girls in pink panties. The Kiowa made the Comanche and the Apache seem almost as bad, like choir boys perhaps. Even the Comanche and Apache were scared shitless of the Kiowa.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 30, 2021 18:32:31 GMT
The Indians would have a fair idea on how the army worked in the field. They always tried to avoid them until they felt that they had the advantage. I would guess that if Custer rested and attacked on the 26th, that the chances of over 600 men with hundred's of animals, staying out of sight would be a big task. Custer may have been paranoid over being detected and with good cause too. The idea was that the village would scatter, but wouldnt it be more benificial for a village this size to stay together? Once they split into tribes and moved shop, wouldn't they be more vulnerable? I agree with QC that the of course the NA know how the army worked in the field. I will also put of for discussion that the NA had their own army structure in their tribes and again when they gathered as a group of tribes such as LBH. There was too much structure for it to be a casual alliance. It spoke of years-decades or longer of coming together and then parting.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 30, 2021 19:36:45 GMT
We have all heard talk over the ages Beth concerning the "White Man's Burden".
The real White Man's Burden is that White Men generally get stupid about everyone else but the Caucasian Race.
That was never so much more true then how we dealt with the Indians. When we set out to do battle in the American West the White Man was the visiting team, and those other fellows always had home field advantage, and the White Man's stupidity was the Indian's twelfth man.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 31, 2021 11:15:12 GMT
In those days, I guess that any large military expedition undertaken on enemy turf, would be hard to conceal. It could be the American west, it could be Afghanistan or the Sudan, the locals had their eye on you.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 31, 2021 18:01:40 GMT
Ian: I think one must differentiate between your adversary knowing you are in the field, and your adversary knowing exactly where you are.
The former is almost impossible to conceal, as you say everyone and his brother would know that you are out there somewhere. The latter is not so much a given, in that you have various ways to conceal your movements from one location to another, by such means as night marches, deception operations, and many other minor techniques, such as sending out small detachments, who attempt to make themselves look larger than they are. One of the ones that I like quite a bit is the dictum of the Indian fighting Army in the southwest, against Comanche, Kiowa, and Apache, is make your enemy think you are in great strength or soon will be. Custer should have read Sun Tzu, instead of attending those plays on Broadway.
"When you are far away, make your enemy think you are near. When you are near to your enemy, make him think you are far away"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 18:58:18 GMT
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 31, 2021 19:53:48 GMT
One thing though, a foriegn army fighting on foreign soil, usually has to rely on locals for menial tasks, any large scale mission would have "confederates" amonge the locals, which probably still goes on now!
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 31, 2021 21:04:31 GMT
One thing though, a foriegn army fighting on foreign soil, usually has to rely on locals for menial tasks, any large scale mission would have "confederates" amonge the locals, which probably still goes on now! Is that a given? I know there were times that a foreign army had to rely on the local area for food and other supplies because of supply chain issues (I am thinking of the Peninsular War particularly) but does that still hold true? (just curious)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 21:34:23 GMT
One thing though, a foriegn army fighting on foreign soil, usually has to rely on locals for menial tasks, any large scale mission would have "confederates" amonge the locals, which probably still goes on now! Is that a given? I know there were times that a foreign army had to rely on the local area for food and other supplies because of supply chain issues (I am thinking of the Peninsular War particularly) but does that still hold true? (just curious) In the modern era, not so much. For instance in Desert Storm we only ate our own rations, however we got water and fuel from the Saudi's or (in the case of water) we might dig our own wells. Ammunition was also from the US. Today, a vehicle that shows up with an empty fuel tank is a valid requisition for fuel and anyone will refuel anyone. When we were getting ready to leave, we ate in contract mess halls, but it was mostly American style food. I only think I had a camel pizza when we were in the rear assembly area waiting to move into the port.
|
|