mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 24, 2021 2:42:25 GMT
Hi Mike lovely stuff and very interesting reading...looking forward to the next parts.
I think this bit sums up my view
"I think Terry wanted Custer to find the enemy and not attack until both forces were located so as to block the possible escape of the Village to the South or North. In the 11th ACR, we didn't think of reconnaissance consisting of just finding the enemy, we thought of it as finding him, fixing him, then piling on to break through the enemy recon/security force, find the main body, and find gaps and maybe go through those gaps. In my mind is what Custer was doing." Of course Custer just lacked the 11th ACR .
Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jan 24, 2021 2:46:55 GMT
WRT to mobility, I think the cavalry was less mobile than the Indians because of the difference in the horses and their feed. Exacerbated by the work load Custer placed on the horses moving as quickly as he did?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2021 2:49:31 GMT
WRT to mobility, I think the cavalry was less mobile than the Indians because of the difference in the horses and their feed. Exacerbated by the work load Custer placed on the horses moving as quickly as he did? No. Cavalry horses were bigger, more burdened, and could not subsist on grass, apparently needing oats to fuel them. So the Indian horses were smaller, more nimble, and could just live off the grass.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 24, 2021 3:21:45 GMT
Ian: I somewhat disagree with you here
Infantry has the same endurance as cavalry. Good, well trained, well conditioned, Infantry can travel just as far per day as cavalry. Robert Rogers taught us that. The Saint Francis raid is a classic example. The advantage that cavalry has over Infantry is in short term speed, and that is the only place where horse cavalry would excel over their dismounted counterparts. On a long march both would be about equal.
Mike is correct here. The lighter you are both mounted and dismounted the faster you are, or can be. There are trade offs though. If you are too light, you lose combat power. If you are too heavy, you lose mobility
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 24, 2021 16:04:20 GMT
What combat power Chuck, this regiment armed and trained like it was, was not designed to fight a pitched battle, now I know that Custer didn’t know that he was out numbered by this many fighters and that these fighters would not run and would push back, so I will give him a bit of leeway here.
Looking at the 7th and most other regiments of the US Army circa 1876, is that all they are good for is scouting and that they remind me of British Armoured Car Regiments during the second world war in that they were used for scouting and the regiment as a whole never fought together but were split to aid the division. In fact, the armoured divisions done away with them mid war and replaced them with an armoured reconnaissance regiment, which contained tanks, and by 1945 this ARR was up graded to the fourth tank regiment in the division. All armoured car regiments were placed at Corps level.
This is what the US Cavalry circa 1876 was best at, each regiment split up to work as part of a larger unit with Infantry and artillery. They could hold a position for only a limited time, and then retire when needed.
I think Reno knew the limitations of his battalion and that charging though to the village was verging on suicide, Custer too may have also realised this around the northern fords.
This type of cavalry also existed in the British army as Hussars and Hussars were just a part of a larger body of cavalry which could include heavy, lancers and dragoons too, and the role of the Hussar was to reconnoitre and occasionally charge a beaten enemy off the battlefield.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 24, 2021 16:27:24 GMT
The combat power of sustainability. The more light you configure your force, the lesser the capacity for that force to sustain itself from within.
It is not just about men and guns. Part of combat power is what you can do with them.
When speaking of 19th Century U S Cavalry, I think you must start off with the premise that they were not designed for war. They were designed as if they were a frontier police force or constabulary. Only for a short period during the Mexican War, and the four years of the American Civil War were they used in war, and as Mike eluded to in one of his above posts, they were for the most part misused. That is not to say that the lessons from that latter war were not valuable, and were adopted, but that adoption would not take place until 1940, with the Armored Force.
We can discuss these matter at great length in the new thread I started last night.
Combat power is a function of all you are able to do as a combat force, and includes many things that do not immediately come to mind in discussing it, such as military medicine, hygiene, diet, physical fitness, soldier wellness, and a host of other issues, that if missing, overlooked, or not paid attention to decreases combat power to a state of nonexistence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2021 16:58:11 GMT
Now we are what I think will be the interesting part, determining where Decision Points are, who made them, what courses of action were available, and conducting an analysis of which way to go,remembering of course, we have much more knowledge than the protagonists. Whether they considered decision points in the same way is relatively unimportant. Each person decides things in a certain way. Some go by a "gut instinct" and others are more methodical. The depth of the analysis is somewhat dependent upon time and whether the decider has considered alternatives before actually setting out on the operation. Today, a decision point (DP) is indicated on a map overlay as a numbered star. It marks a place where the decider has to make a decision between known alternatives. In some cases, it is placed so that effects occur at a designated position when or shortly before the unit arrives at a specified location. For example, I wanted my artillery observer to fire preparation fires so that the last rounds of the prep would be fired just as we thought we would roll up onto the objective, so the enemy's head is still down and so we could be on the objective and dismount before the enemy recovered. I was willing to take the risk of some casualties due to our prep in the hope they would be lighter than if we had to fight our way onto the objective. I have identified 18 Decision Points listed below and they are based on timelines in The Strategy of Defeat, by Fred Wagner. . I would like others to examine them and propose any others. I am not trying to find every DP, just major ones, thus not ever troop commander's decision will be analyzed. If someone has been to the sight and has grid coordinates, I would be grateful for those. I can infer them, but would welcome on the scene input. Tables on the website are tedious to input, so I have added it as an attachment. As we discuss them, each one will be displayed as it is in the attachment. If there is an easier way to insert them, I'd like to know because it is bothersome to have to download the thing to read it and discuss it in detail. Decision Points.docx (17.74 KB)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2021 19:45:47 GMT
Concur the Cavalry/Dragoons in 1876 were not meant for European style war and were more similar to a constabulary than the cavalry force of the Civil War, woefully understrength and poorly trained, particularly since there was no concentration of Regiments into a say a 3 Regiment Brigade. I don't think the 7th trained at all between the ultimatums issue and their deployment. (However, the 1st ID in Desert Storm mostly concentrated on preparation to ship our equipment, receive new items (like GPS and the 9mm pistol), but trained extensively during the build up rehearsing our execution of the attack to breach the 26th (IQ) Division's obstacles. But 2nd Brigade was training for the NTC when we were alerted and had been conducting battalion tests.) 7th Cavalry and the Sioux / 24th Regiment of Foot and the Zulu These two titles cover four smaller battles. Two in which the main force lost against a much larger force and two in which smaller detachments held out against slightly less odds. Custer | Pulleine | Slightly better odds than Pulleine | Somewhat worse odds than Custer | Caught in the open due to attacking | Caught in the open in camp | No field fortifications | No field fortifications | Single Shot Rifles | Single Shot Rifles | Single arm force | Combined arms force | Poor training/marksmanship | Better training/marksmanship | Contempt for enemy | Contempt for enemy | Was not able to gain fire superiority | Maintained fire superiority until ammunition supply faltered | Enemy had more firearms | Very few firearms | 2nd to last defeat by native troops against modern troops | Last defeat by native troops against modern troops | Poor Leadership compared to companion battle | Poor Leadership compared to companion battle | Lower rate of fire, better maximum range | Had range advantage (no firearms) |
Reno/Benteen | Chard/Bromhead | Single Arm Force | Single Armed Force | Somewhat less outnumbered | More Heavily Outnumbered | Coherent Defense with some fortification | Coherent Defense with better prepared fortification | Single shot rifles vs some better firearms | Single shot rifles vs some of the same type, but enemy had little or no training | No bayonets | Had bayonets | Poor training/Marksmanship | Better training/marksmanship | Luckily selected a defendable position | Has prior warning of enemy approach | Little access to water | Little access to water | appeared to have sufficient ammunition | Appeared to have sufficient ammunition. | Better leadership compared to companion battle | Better leadership compared to companion battle
| Lower rate of fire, better maximum range
| Higher rate of fire and longer range, opposed by fewer firearms, unskilled use |
Both forces held out for about the same time, although Reno/Benteen defended over two days after Reno's attack was defeated and Benteen arrived just as the enemy was being drawn to Custer. Enemy disengaged because of approach of Terry/Gibbon and the dependents had started to move away, protected by the warriors. Chard/Bromhead fought without respite from attack. Probably both could not have held out for another day as more forces were available to concentrate, lack of ammunition and water. I don't know if Chelmsford main column also began to threaten the Zulu at Rorke's drift or if they just gave up. Had Custer and Pulleine been able to form "square" on suitable terrain (perhaps for Custer, the 3300 foot contour SE of Nye-Cartwright Ridge), they may have delayed the outcome, but probably would have still be overwhelmed unless enemy voluntarily disengaged due to other threats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2021 19:58:16 GMT
How does one insert a poll into a thread?
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Post by quincannon on Jan 24, 2021 20:13:16 GMT
Beth knows. PM her. I don't have a clue.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 24, 2021 20:20:26 GMT
If you go to the top of this page, you will see the words "order analysis" click on that and it will take you to the thread which these posts are located, then you will see "Pole" you will have to take it from there because I have never used it. Good luck!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2021 21:59:26 GMT
If you go to the top of this page, you will see the words "order analysis" click on that and it will take you to the thread which these posts are located, then you will see "Pole" you will have to take it from there because I have never used it. Good luck! Well, that just appears to be the legend for when someone mysteriously gets a Poll inserted. The idea is to allow a vote for the proposed COAs.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 25, 2021 6:27:51 GMT
Okay, well I can't help you anymore with it, I gave it my best shot,so its down to Beth.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 25, 2021 19:39:51 GMT
Mike: If memory serves we tried to conduct a poll some years ago on this site and were unable to make it work effectively. Best bet is to send a personal message to Beth. She runs the site and if anyone knows how to do it she does.
In the meantime your comparing the battles above was as far as I can see spot on.
Ian: What painting/print is your new Avitar, and can you produce a larger version so I can tell what the heck I am looking at?
Mike: Speaking of prints, have you ever seen the one of the Blackhorse done about twenty years ago by Don Stivers, called "The Last Charge" ?
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 25, 2021 20:40:57 GMT
I managed to find a couple of prints to use as a desktop, my Avatar is a British Unit circa 1940 France and taking on Pz 38Ts, maybe 7th Panzer (Rommels Ghost Division) and another print which may interest you;
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