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Post by yanmacca on Jan 20, 2021 14:56:13 GMT
Hi all, seeing that Mike is on board, I would like to address Custer’s orders. As Gordon Harper says, orders or instructions. Well let’s split the order note in two, lets look at what they want him to do;
He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken leads. Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians to the south or southeast by passing around to your flank.
The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock’s Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon’s column with the information of the result of your examination. The lower part of this creek will be examined by a detachment from Colonel Gibbon’s command.
Then, they also contain this, which is what Custer could really do, as he felt prudent in the field;
The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, of course impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you, precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy.
He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them.
Now, Custer went for the Indian camp, which is not a million miles away from “you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since”.
So really Custer obeyed his instructions to a point and later acted on what he thought was an opportunity to find the Indians and stop their escape to the south, he did try and stop any escape by attacking them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 17:49:54 GMT
Oh. Now you forced my hand. I have not studied the battle as long as most of you have, but I do have an opinion and an armored cavalryman. So here goes. I am engaged in a little project, largely focused on Decision Points but want to start with the order. There is probably not much new ground here; tese thoughts are part of my preparatin for my postponed trip to the LBH which currently looks like it may get postponed again. Here's the plan: First: Examine Terry's orders. Second: Explain the difference between a Letter of Instruction (LOI) and an Operations Order (OPORD) Third: Rephrase Terry's orders into an Modern OPORD. Fourth: Analyze the order as if I was leading the staff in planning using the Military Decision Making Process (MDMP). Fifth: Determine decision points and propose available course of action and comparisons for each one. (Hint: one will always be what Custer, Reno, or Benteen did historically.) If the moderators would prefer I place this in an new thread, please let me know and I will start one. --------------------------- Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field) Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876 Lieutenant-Colonel Custer, 7th Cavalry Colonel: The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless y ou shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank. The column of Colonel Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly inclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's command The supply-steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks of the river is found to be navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the meantime you receive further orders. Very respectfully, Your obedient servant, E. W. Smith, Captain, 18th Infantry A. A. J. G. The bolded letters, regardless of how they are phrased, are merely a polite way to tell him what the general wants him to do. In my Officers Guide, I got way back in 1976, it says words to the effect of "a superior's I wish or I desire are the same as I order." I learned over my career that if a senior officer is using other words instead of I order, he means I order and that is what he expects you to do. Now, when you are in conversation with him and you disagree, a simple "can we talk about this" will enable you to discuss it further. Regardless of how it comes out, you can always get the last word by saying "Yes, sir." I also learned that when my Platoon, First Sergeant, or my Chief NCO and/or for whatever reason I was conferring with the Battalion, Brigade, Regimental, or Division Command Sergeant Major that I should consider his words very carefully. (Sometimes, when deciding to do the task my way to my PSG or 1SG, I'd say you are probably right, but I'd like to try it anyway. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't." Now then, people point to the phrase "impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy" means Custer can do what he wants. That's not quite so. When custer decided to follow the trail, he was not yet " nearly in contact with the enemy." That modifies the next part and places limits on when he is free to diverge from the order, such as " unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them". So if he bumped into the enemy before reaching the headwaters of the Rosebud, then he could attack. And of course Terry specifically states " you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue..." as well as sending a scout down Tullock's Creek, which is why Herrenden was attached to him. Fred Wagner says this very clearly in his book and the task was to confirm to Terry Tullock's Creek was clear of the enemy. Conjecture: Had Custer continued south, he would have most likely come across the scene of Crooks fight of the 17th. He then would have been free to follow the trail to where the Indians were. But had he continued, the Sioux camp may have moved, probably further south because they knew that Crook was far away and that Gibbon was to the North and they would have likely missed making contact with the Sioux. Addition. When they get near enough to Tullock's Creek, they can see there is no trail leading that way indicating it is both clear of the enemy and safe for Herendeen to go and report to Terry. OK. That's part I. Onto Part II. Be Kind. Trim your posts so the thread does not become terribly long.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 17:57:25 GMT
Letter of Instruction versus Operations Order. [Addition: Some people think a letter of Instruction is not a real order and feel it may be optional. That's not quite so.]
Definitions (from google).
Instruction.
1. a direction or order.
"he issued instructions to the sheriff"
Similar: order, command, directive, direction. decree, edict, injunction, mandate, dictate, commandment, diktat
2. detailed information telling how something should be done, operated, or assembled. "always study the instructions supplied"
Similar: directions, key, guide, specification
Order. noun
1. the arrangement or disposition of people or things in relation to each other according to a particular sequence, pattern, or method.
"I filed the cards in alphabetical order" (Mike: Clearly this definition does not apply to our discussion.)
2. an authoritative command, direction, or instruction. "he was not going to take orders from a mere administrator"
Similar: command, instruction, directive, direction
verb
1. give an authoritative direction or instruction to do something. "she ordered me to leave"
Similar:
instruct, command, direct, tell, require
2. request (something) to be made, supplied, or served. "my friend ordered the tickets last week"
Similar: request, apply for, send away/off for, write off for, put in an order for.
As an illustration, if you said to a waiter "I think I'd like filet mignon ." and he delivered pork chops, you would send the meal back because he has not complied with your desire.
Even when something is an order, you can argue or suggest alternatives to the task right up until you are told to execute. Again, it is always possible to get the last word in by saluting and saying “yessir”.
In the modern Army, Letters of Instruction are used for most things when the unit is in garrison. But there is no doubt about what you are supposed to do. How can you tell?
LOIs are signed by the Adjutant. The format used today is:
FOR THE COMMANDER:
Michael K. Robel
LTC, GS G-1 (Adjutant)
Only the Adjutant is allowed to sign like that. Sometimes, an assistant adjutant is assigned so the command can function when the appointed one is unavailable. Or the commander can sign it.
Operations Orders are used in the field. They are formatted like this:
ACKNOWLEDGE:
Terry Major General
Official:
Robel S-3
Annexes or Appendices requiring a signature are signed by the appropriate staff officer, for example the Logistics Annex would be signed:
Official:
Robel S-4
Now, note who signed the LOI from Terry to Custer:
Very respectfully, Your obedient servant, E. W. Smith, Captain, 18th Infantry A. A. J. G.
Who was Terry's Adjutant. I confess I am not sure what AAJG stands for, but I am pretty sure the AA means Acting Adjutant. [Addition: I found a different signature block signed "Acting Assistant Adjutant General" .]
Also note Reno appointed a new Adjutant after Hogsden was killed, because that who is authorized to give orders in the commander's place.
No military officer today would think just because he was told to something in an LOI that he could ignore the wishes of his Commander just because it was promulgated with the Adjutant's signature.
This is not to prohibit the following:
During the Austro-Prussian War of 1866, a Prussian officer defended himself from reprimand by arguing that he was simply following orders. His commander, Prince Frederick Charles, reportedly replied: “His Majesty made you a Major because he believed you would know when not to obey his orders.” But this course of action should only be selected when the subordinate is very clear he is still accomplishing his commanders intent. For example the actions taken to seize the Remagen Bridge.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 18:07:27 GMT
This is the reworked order in modern format using the original order as a base. I believe it portrays Terry's intent as based on the order, his journal, proceedings of the RCOI, and other historical documents/books. It would be nice if the original map with the "Blue Line" marked on it on the Far West had been preserved.
Copy _ of __ copies Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field) Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876 (U) Time Zone Used Throughout the OPORD: Chicago Time (?)PLAN/OPORD: (U) Task Organization:
Custer Column 7th Cavalry (- detachments)
Gibbon Column 7th Infantry Battalion CO A/7th Infantry CO B/7th Infantry CO E/7th Infantry CO H/7th Infantry CO I/7th Infantry CO K/7th Infantry 17th Infantry Battalion CO B/6th Infantry CO C/17th Infantry CO G/17th Infantry 2nd Cavalry Detachment CO F/2nd Cavalry CO G/2nd Cavalry CO H/2nd Cavalry CO L/2nd Cavalry Artillery Detachment CO C/20th Infantry (-) (Gatling Gun)
Powder River Depot 6th Infantry Detachment CO C/6th Infantry CO D/6th Infantry CO I/6th Infantry 7th Cavalry Detachment Band 7th Cavalry Dismounted Troops/7th Cavalry
1. Situation.
a. Enemy Forces. A large gathering of Sioux Indians is thought to be along the Little Bighorn river, numbering perhaps 4500 tribesmen with 1500 warriors. Their most probable course of action upon contact with US forces will be to scatter to evade capture and cover the flight with their warriors.
b. Friendly Forces. (1) Division of the Missouri: Conducts Operations within the Black Hills Region to drive the Hostile Indian Tribes back to their Reservation. (2) Department of the Platte: Advance North from Fort Fetterman and drive Hostile Indian Tribes back to their Reservations. (Note: We have had no contact with the Department of the Platte.)
c. Attachments and Detachments. See Task Organization
2. Mission. The Department of Dakota conducts a movement to contact on 221200June1876 (Chicago Time) within the region of the area bounded by the Yellowstone River from our current location west to the Big Horn/Little Bighorn junction, south along the Little Bighorn – the general line of the headwaters of the Little Bighorn and Rosebud rivers, north up the Rosebud to the Yellowstone River in two columns with the intent to locate and trap the Sioux between the two columns along the lower Little Bighorn River and drive them to their reservation. I expect the two columns to combine on 26 June.
3. Execution.
a. Concept of Operations. The Department of Dakota conducts a movement to contact in two separate columns commencing 22 June. The 7th Cavalry Regiment shall proceed up the Rosebud until the definite direction in which the Indian Trail leads, once the trail is discovered continue south as far as the headwaters of the Tongue River, and then west to the headwaters of the Little Bighorn, then turn North along the Little Bighorn to meet the Gibbon column vicinity the Bighorn-Little Bighorn junction. The Gibbon Column shall move along the Yellowstone River to the mouth of the Bighorn River and move South to the junction of the Bighorn and Little Bighorn Rivers. I aim to trap/contain the Indians between the two troop columns and prevent their escape to the north, south or east.
b. Tasks to Subordinate Units.
(1) 7th Cavalry (a) Conduct Movement to Contact South along the Rosebud River (b) Conduct reconnaissance to your left to ensure the Indians do not pass your command undetected. (c) Determine the location and direction of the Indian trail. (d) Continue up the Rosebud to the headwaters of the Tongue River (e) Upon reaching Tullock’s Creek, send a reconnaissance party up the river to report to the Department Commander if Indians are found and inform me of your progress. (f) Continue the Movement to Contact to the headwaters of the Little Bighorn, then North toward the junction of the Big Horn/Little Bighorn River than 7 July Turn to make contact with the Indian camp and/or myself. (g) Report to the Department Commander No Later than 7 July at the junction of the Bighorn and Little Bighorn rivers aboard the supply-steamer Far West no later than when your rations are consumed.
(2) Gibbon Column (a) Conduct Reconnaissance along the Yellowstone River until meeting Tullocks Creek. (b) Scout Tullock’s Creek south to the Yellowstone River (c) Continue to the junction of the Bighorn river and move south as far up as the junction of the Bighorn and Little Bighorn Rivers.
c. Coordinating Instructions. (1) Order effective upon receipt. (2) Commander’s Critical Information Requirements. (a) Are Sioux forces along Tullock’s Creek? (b) Where does the SiouxTrail depart from the Rosebud River? (c) What is the location of the Sioux Village? (d) What is the strength of the Sioux Village? (e) What is the strength of the Sioux Warrior force? (f) Where is General Crooks Column? (added)
4. Sustainment.
a. Logistics. (1) 7th Cavalry: Carry provisions for 15 days of operations for men and 20 pounds of oats per horse. (2) Gibbon Column: Provision for 6 days of operations.
5. Command and Signal.
(a) Location of Commander and Key Leaders. Commander will locate with the Gibbon Column and/or on the supply-steamer Far West (b) Succession of Command. SOP.
ACKNOWLEDGE:
TERRY Major General
OFFICIAL: SMITH, Captain Adjutant
Next to come will be a Mission Analysis. As a start and as an exercise for the Student, I ask some brave souls to examine the order above and determine:
Specified Tasks.
Implied Tasks.
Critical Tasks. Critical tasks may be specified and/or implied. They are critical to mission success.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 20, 2021 20:04:46 GMT
Going to your first post Mike, Custer did follow the Rosebud and then turned towards the Little Big Horn. He moved west along Davis Creek, probably following a trail. He still should have used Herrenden in the role he was there for. Could Herrenden have kept in contact with the 7th if one is moving south and the other east? Once Custer reaches his firt halt, things do start to move rapidly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 21:33:58 GMT
Granted. But when he turned to go to the Crows Nest, he left the Rosebud and he was not yet in contact with the enemy, and Terry specifically said, keep going south. If he ran into the enemy along the Rosebud or had been spotted, then I think that activates the clause.
Speaking as a cavalryman, I'd be hard press not to go find the enemy so we could pile on.
Great map by the way. Did you do it? I recently got a 1:12,500 map of the battle area thats about 4 x 5 feet wide or so from a place called mytopo.com where you can specify area, size, and scale, gete a topo, combo topo/aerial photograph, aerial photograph, or SATVIEW. Prices range from about 29.95 to over 100. I also got mine with a UTM grid on it and shaded relief at no extra charge. Based on USGS maps.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2021 21:39:41 GMT
Mike: I am going to refrain from commenting until the mission analysis is fully laid out, and am looking forward to it.
Suffice to say though that a lot of people in the LBH community will state that these modern analytical tools are much too far advanced to be applicable in the last quarter of the 19th Century. I do not share that view, and I believe that most of the heretics here assembled do not share them as well. While these tools may seem more fit for the modern age, they go back to a time when Alexander, Caesar, and Hannibal marched. They are not new, but ancient, and as such are more than relative.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 21:52:13 GMT
I have a real issue with the way we do MDMP now. There are so many things you have to do. Higher, left, right, supporting, supported. Commander's Intent two levels up. Operational Design. No one knows how to wargame. Long detailed orders. In the 11th ACR, the acme of skill was to produce an order on a piece of acetate. The overlay should stand by itself. The order should stand by itself. We have become French.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2021 23:37:01 GMT
Can't argue with that. We have done it to ourselves though, in that I would venture to say that the ability to communicate, has advanced much further since your days in the Black Horse, and with that every damned son of a bitch under the sun wants to stick his nose into what is essentially the business of Lieutenant Colonels, Captains, and Lieutenants.
We will have to find a way of dealing with this, but to me the essence of these principals being universal and timeless, would be the ability of a JEB Stuart to walk into your TOC, look at the map, glance at your OPORD, grunt a time or two, and then saying OK Let's go. He would be comfortable with the basic concepts. Might have a bit of trouble climbing aboard an M1A2 with that saber, and being careful not to muss the plume in his hat, but I think you get my meaning
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 2:05:44 GMT
I wish I had Upton's cavalry tactics manual. Phillip ST George Cooke's appears to just talk about formations, turns, etc. and does not really seem to cover tactics. The Byzantine tactics manual by Maurice actually makes more sense to me. The process, as you know, can be very fast, sometimes almost instinctual.
Yeah. Custer, Stuart, Sheridan, Merritt, Alexander the Great, Hannibal, and Belisarius would grasp the concepts, once they adjusted to the speed of the vehicles and the stand off/range and effects of the weapons.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2021 4:01:35 GMT
I have St George Cooke's and it is more like FM22-5 than anything resembling a tactical treatise.
I once looked at the airmobile division, using the Howtze Board report as a starting point, then examining the combat records of the 1st Cavalry Division and the 101st Airborne Division in Vietnam. What I found was that the 1st Cavalry Division used horse cavalry technique almost exclusively, while the 101st just substituted a helicopter for a parachute. The tactics, I concluded were exactly the same, it was the technique that was the difference. From that moment I resolved, and hold to this day, that tactics are universal and unchanging. There are no Infantry, or Cavalry, or Armor tactics, just tactics, and it is the application of those tactics, through technique, that makes the unschooled think they are different.
If I am correct then, it is the study of all of military history. that would allow a Stuart or a Sheridan to perform at a continuing standard of excellence regardless, if they commanded tanks in Desert Storm, or Starship Troopers in Heinlein's Mobile Infantry.
Get on with your work here, I am interrupting. Anyway I have those Valentines to finish up.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 21, 2021 6:24:45 GMT
[quote author="@mikerobel" source="/post/23778/thread Great map by the way. Did you do it? I recently got a 1:12,500 map of the battle area thats about 4 x 5 feet wide or so from a place called mytopo.com where you can specify area, size, and scale, gete a topo, combo topo/aerial photograph, aerial photograph, or SATVIEW. Prices range from about 29.95 to over 100. I also got mine with a UTM grid on it and shaded relief at no extra charge. Based on USGS maps.[/quote]
No Mike, I found them on line, that is the first in a sequence, I can send them to you via PM is you wish.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 14:06:57 GMT
Sadly, no one has responded with a list of tasks they believed to be Specified, Implied, or Critical for the 7th Cavalry. Here is my list. It is not difficult to figure out. Critical | Specified | Implied |
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| S |
| Conduct movement to contact South along the Rosebud River |
| S |
| Conduct reconnaissance to left (East) |
| S |
| Determine location and direction of the Indian Trail |
| S |
| Continue up the Rosebud to the headwaters of the Tongue River | C | S |
| Send a scout down Tullocks Creek and have him report to CG the presence of Sioux along the creek | C | S |
| Continue to the headwaters of the Little Bighorn, then move north to find the Sioux camp | C | S |
| Make contact with the CG NLT 7 July | C |
| I | Determine Location and strength of the Sioux village | C |
| I | Locate and engage Sioux along the route of march and report location and strength to the CG
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| I | If the Crook Column is located inform the CG and provide General Crook any information gathered
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LIMITATIONS: We should not, when we find the Indian Trail, turn to follow it to the LBH, but continue South to the LBH headwaters, then turn toward the Tongue and move to the LBH Headwaters, then turn North up the river, toward the Big Horn/Little Bighorn river junction. (From this statement in the order: He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn...) The next step for a modern staff would be to develop a mission statement for the Regiment. This specifies what is to be accomplished including Who, What, When, Where, and Why. Here is mine: The 7th Cavalry conducts route reconnaissance NLT 221200June1876 along the route defined by the river courses of the Rosebud to its headwaters, west to the headwaters of the Tongue, then North along the Little Bighorn, dispatch a scouting party North along Tullock's Creek to locate the Sioux Village somewhere along the Little Bighorn, while screening to the East to ensure the enemy has not left the area.I specify route reconnaissance as opposed to zone reconnaissance because the Sioux usually located their villages along Rivers. Route reconnaissance requires the unit to examine the area along the route to at least the effective range of the enemy's weapons and/or to areas that provide line of sight to the route. The unit will normally seek to clear the area of the enemy out to the limits of their boundaries. The Reconnaissance Objective is not the ground which may be specified by a phase line or objective, in this case the link up point with Gibbon, but finding and/or destroying or fixing the enemy when they are contacted. In some ways, the 7th Cavalry's mission reminds me a little of the Hammelburg Raid conducted by TF Baum with C/37th Armor, A/10th Armored Infantry, a platoon of D/37th Armor, and other supporting elements, totalling 11 officers, 303 men, 57 tanks, halftracks, and other vehicles to liberate the US prisoners, among them LTG Patton's Son in Law. It was destroyed, but not wiped out. Ironically, Hammelburg was the site of the German Army's Anti-Tank Training School and in its final position, they occupied an area on the range and the Germans knew the exact ranges from various firing points to where the TF was located. The short description is here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_Baum. Decision points will be discussed after a delay as I am dealing with appointments and plumbing problems and checking my work...
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 21, 2021 15:03:03 GMT
I will write out a piece tonight Mike, I am not home till 8:30 GMT.
I will also send you those maps then too.
TF Baum, I have been compiling a list of US task forces from around that period. QC and I share an interest in the Ardennes battles.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2021 16:09:56 GMT
And the Western Desert. Especially the desert, where men were men, tanks were tanks, sand was sand, and the jaroba got all the publicity.
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