Strategic alternative for Japan

[mac]

Somewhere recently there was a Pearl Harbor discussion.

How about the idea that Japan not move into South East Asia but rather coordinate with their German allies and invade Russia from the East?

Adds resources for Japan.

Stifles the Russian retreat beyond the Urals from the Germans .

How would the US react?

Cheers

[yanmacca]

Hi Mac, this was on the drawing board; link

[mac]

There you go.

Thanks Ian.

Cheers

[yanmacca]

Mac, I think that any Japanese army advancing from either China, Mongolia or Korea, would quickly run out of steam as there are little roads or rail in that area, plus it is pretty barren.

The Soviets had drained off a lot of troops from that area to defend Moscow and even Stalingrad, but in the Summer of 1942, they had in the area;
Troops: 139034
Artillery: 2420
Tanks: 428 light tanks

The Japanese army mainly relied on foot and horse to move their Infantry, the Infantry commanders still thought of tanks and stuff as secondary weapons, still thinking that Infantry and bayonet won you wars, so they would have really struggled to make any head way and all the time the Russians would be waiting for them and biding their time before they ran out of steam and halted, just like the Germans did and then counter attacked.

[quincannon]

No one wins wars against Russia by invading Russia. The way you win a war against Russia is to let Russia inevitably defeat itself. It takes longer, but it is the only way to beat them. They are inevitably overwhelmed by their own national paranoia.

[yanmacca]

Well the US Govenment with Regan at the helm, took on the eastern bloc in an arms race which bankrupt the commies, in the end the place was a shambles as they tried to trade rouble for dollar trying to make just as many weapons as the states and lost.

[mac]

Nice commentary.

My second question...given Japan did go into Russia then there is no Pearl Harbor; so will the US become involved in WW2?

[yanmacca]

Well Mac Chuck and I have been over this ground before and he eluded to the fact that the US navy was active in the Atlantic before pearl harbour.

I think that it was going to matter of time before American got involved big time, I don't know much about how the Irish Americans saw helping the English out was in their best interest as Ireland turned a blind eye to the Nazis.

Germany declared war the US which gave them no option but they would have taken an active role anyway as there own eastern coast line became a war zone.

In the Pacific, the Japanese would have to tread carefully as any wrong move would bring the Americans into military actions, but the japanese had already started their own down fall in invading China which placed them into the bad boy box along with Germany so it would be only a matter of time before they clashed with the US.


Also remember that when the japanese attacked pearl harbour, they also attacked Britain too.


We have a bad boy box now with Russia, China, North Korea and Iran. But these days nations would rather confront them in the UN and not on the battlefield.

[quincannon]

My position is that war with both Japan and Germany was inevitable.

In the Atlantic, Lend Lease led directly to war with Germany. We were not about to produce military goods only to have them sunk half way across the Atlantic. That led to the protection of convoys, which in turn led to a direct confrontation with the German Navy. Had there been no Pearl Harbor, war in the Atlantic theater was still no more than a few weeks or months away.

In the Pacific, an invasion of Russia through the back door would not lead to the immediate mitigation of Japan's natural resource problem. It may have in the long term, but short term answers were what was needed most. The short term answer is southward, and no southward advance could take place without U S involvement, Pearl Harbor strike or not.

Were I Yamamoto though, I would not have struck Pearl. I would have left them alone, and had the U S implement War Plan Orange. In other words let that pile of junk that was our battleship force advance across the Pacific into Philippine waters, then sink them all there, and they all surely would have been sunk, had Orange been followed to the tee.

[mac]

Now that is a very interesting take on the battleships, I start thinking Prince of Wales and Repulse. So much more effective to sink them at sea and put them beyond repair.

Would the Japanese have been well advised to take Midway.

Cheers

[yanmacca]

Well Mac, they took Wake and Guam early on, but apparently their attentions were more focused on capturing other objectives like the Philippines, Malaya and Singapore, so Midway was shelved. But some reckon that Midway was put on the back burner because of the attack on Pearl, as the IJN had no idea of how that battle would pan out and if they lost the element of surprise, thus if their fleet had retreat then any fleet or force sent to capture Midway would be isolated (similar to Reno and Custer). The supply of any base on Midway too, would be problematic, because even in 1941, it was too far to properly support.

The Japanese suddenly realized the importance of Midway after the Doolittle raid, but even then, in 1942, it was not the main objective, the larger plan was to bring the US navy into battle and defeating it in one big decisive battle.


I have two movies about the battle of Midway, one is from 1976 and the other is more recent from last year. I can't recall much about the 1976 version and have not got round to viewing the new one.

Ian