Numbars

[deadwoodgultch]

Numbers of Indians at the LBH, numbers of warriors at LBH are all over the place. I have seen them anywhere from 1,200 to 5,000. I am going to use Young Two Moons' numbers as he was a participant and related to several of the leaders of the Cheyenne. This citation comes from "The Fighting Cheyennes" by George Bird Grinnell. The book published in 1915, and Grinnell spoke the language.

"The community of Indians attacked here by the Custer command was a large one — how large no one knows. Young Two Moon has declared to me that there were two hundred lodges in the Cheyenne village and six villages of Sioux, each one larger thanthe Cheyenne. Even if the Sioux villages were no larger than the Cheyenne this would make one thousand four hundred lodges, and beside the people occupying the lodges there were a multitude of strangers — Indians from different reservations — whose number cannot be estimated. That spring the Sioux and the Cheyennes sent out runners to Red Cloud, Spotted Tail, Standing Rock, and other Sioux reservations to call warriors to join the camp, and the response to this invitation was large. There were also in the camp some Southern Cheyennes, some Yankton Sioux, and some Arapahoes. Many of these people were guests in the lodges, and many others camped under shelters outside of the lodges. Cheyennes have told me that they believed there were more than one thousand five hundred  lodges, and perhaps three or four fighting men to a lodge, a total therefore of from four thousand five hundred to six thousand men."

While this seems high, to me I have been told that not all of the warriors were even participating in the battle, itself. Any thoughts

[quincannon]

Always an interesting topic. I am sure to those 7th Cavalry soldiers the number appeared like several bazillion.

I have always been stuck on about two thousand warriors actually participating in the fight. I do not discount some warriors not participating in actual combat, but rather securing the camp and also giving some security to those trying to flee. I suspect that by the time those fleeing realized that the danger had passed, those warriors trying to see to the refugee's safety were too late to join the battle.

Securing the camp though would be seen as a vital task for a good number of warrior non-battle participants. The only way an end around in football works is if some defenders are locked into their assigned zones by the possibility of a forward pass. It is a significant tactical error to go rushing after the enemy you see with your whole force, lest the enemy you do not see rams a steel pipe up your ass.

Determining the close estimate of warriors engaged is also inhibited by the often mentioned Indian interior lines, which allowed the shifting of forces south to north with ease, based on different emerging threats. There is a high propensity therefore to double count.

I think before anyone sets out to do this, count the Indian participating combatants, they first should come to some universally understood agreement on what is a warrior. How is he defined in terms of age group, Indian tradition, and maybe a few other factors that do not readily come to mind

The only thing I do know for sure though is that no one has ever gotten it right in a hundred forty four years, because we just do not have enough data. "More than", "perhaps" "maybe" "might be" "many" "big" "some" --- just does not cut it.

[deadwoodgultch]

You have got it right, that, maybe nobody has it right. There is also a theory that a number were out chasing Buffalo or attempting to steal Crow horses. Coming and going from the reservations may also tilt who was there on any given day. The counts by those on Reno Hill by Ryan and others is high as well. This from William Philo Clark, previously posted elsewhere. "On June 17th the Indians were camped on a small tributary of the Little Bighorn River about 18 miles above the place where Gen. Custer's troops found them on the 25th. They had at this time about 1200 standing lodges and 400 wickiups, or brush shelters, and numbered about 3500 fighting men." Clark was a Lt. with the 2nd Cav. and later attached to Sheridan's staff as well as being noted for his understanding of and use of sign language.

Regard,
Tom

[quincannon]

What I would expect is that what was taking place at the time Reno and Custer started their offensive movement, is exactly the same thing that would be happening in any small town in America on a Sunday afternoon. Some doing this, some doing that, some doing another. It would be a fundamental mistake to have a good count of warriors, which we all know to be impossible, and then expect all, or half, or two thirds to be engaged in battle with the regiment, anywhere on that field. That defies human nature, thinking that some or many were not doing what they normally would be doing, that may preclude them from attendance. There may have been a great many up at Crow Agency Stadium (sponsored by FEDEX) watching the Lacrosse Super Bowl for all any of us know.

Why in the Name of Christ Crucified do you think I get so damned upset with these intellectual morons who say they know precisely what, and at what time, something was being done by this many? They are all fools and pretenders, who are themselves a clear and present danger to the truth. If I could I would horsewhip the lot of them. Better yet, drive the money changers (for that's what they are all about) from the Temple. That type ruin history, in that they are all in it for either money or enhanced reputation, and don't really give two hoots in hell about truth.

If you ever meet a man who cannot bring himself to say - I don't know, when you know he doesn't, avoid him like the plague.

[herosrest]

That was weird. Logged in, started a topic reply and got a legit popup from my ISP telling me i had won an iPhone !!. Incredible but unfortunately I don't use Apple stuff, hated Steve Jobs with real passion and tried to sink his yacht before it was launched. So, I declined and suggested they use it as a bar of soap. Really.

Now, Terry was methodical even plodding and undertook a post battle assessment and recon of the ground. There were 1800 tipi imprints, counted by a three striper, ordered to do it. Therefore there were 1,000-1100 or so tipis in the valley across the terrain used on 25/26th June 1876. Many People don'y know this and others ignore it. The stick built enclosures along the river glades were sweat lodges where the men went to sweat and then swim in the river.

I hope that all are well and the current insurrection calms down and the cool heads bring some sense before hell freezes over.

Me, I'm getting my Coronavirus act together and am ready, almost, to venture forth. Just waiting on the latex onepiece and silk poncho.

ps,  When Hell freezes............ there is Just ice!

Voila - Covid Guy - 

[yanmacca]

Join the club HR, that scam has had me twice, keep away from it, probably eastern Europeans or Asians, they all need birching and then sentenced to death for crimes against the normal people.

I hope you are also keepling clear of the covid carrying marchers in London, they are doing their best to clog up the NHS.

Stay safe HR.

[herosrest]

The activity yesterday left me beyond livid and fuming. How can so many people get it completely wrong. They, we, want to do something and there is frustration with the thing to do. That is stay home and when you're not - SD (social distance). Doing nothing is everything. We cannof afford this rubbish idiocy - still, what do I know. As someone posted somewhere,he was surprised they weren't all wearing Cummings masks.

As far as the 'eastern Europeans or Asians' go, don't be so harsh. Just make them drink Assam Tea. 

[yanmacca]

True I was a bit harsh, but at least we don't garrote people or make them ware orange shirts before chopping their heads off.

Are they all on the street and taking a knee around your place?

[quincannon]

HR, you handsome devil you. You remind me of my ex-mother in law. And I see by your hat you are one of the "Death or Glory" boys. My ex-mother in law wore one of those too.

The two things you have to remember, or at least keep in mind, when seeing people out there marching without masks and social distancing. It is a case of one or the other.

1. You can't fix stupid, OR

2. People are willing to risk their lives for a cause, like fixing social injustice, or the right to vote, as we saw in Wisconsin about a month ago. In Wisconsin, the Republican legislature insisted that the primary election be held, and not delayed because of the pandemic, thought that by insisting that it be held on the scheduled day would depress turnout to their advantage. Suffice to say it did not and they lost.

3. Maybe it is a case of both.

Now if you don't know what social injustice is, let me give you an example:

You are at the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. There are several people in front of you all buying the very same loaf of bread, The difference is that all those people are Black, Brown, Red, or Yellow. They are all Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or Agnostic. You on the other hand are a White Anglo Saxon Protestant. Every one of those people in front of you pays fifty cents more for that loaf of bread than you do. You may like the price reduction you received, but may have second thoughts on the reason why. Then you go to the store the next day, and the same parameters exist, only this time you pay fifty cents more than everyone else is charged. Being in the minority in the land of the White, that is supposed to be the Land Of The Free, does have its drawbacks doesn't it? Well being a minority in the Land of Color, that should be  The Land Of The Free, ain't so hot either.

[yanmacca]

That does happen Chuck, in all the major cities the tourists pay more than the locals, so I have a plan to counter this and that is to go into the bars that the locals go.

I remember me and Suzy went to Prague for a long weekend, we arrived at nine at night and it was dark, now I was spitting feathers so I suggested that we have a few beers then find a place to eat. All I remember is walking down these dark allys and finding this small bar which was full of locals none of which spoke English, I ordered two beers [well pointed at the beer pump] and paid, I went wow at the price as it was as cheap as chips, needless to say I had about four pints, then we got back on the main drag and ended up getting ripped of in a burger joint.

The next evening we searched again for that bar and never found it.

Looking back we were lucky we didn't get mugged in those dark allys.