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Post by herosrest on Jan 3, 2020 14:00:40 GMT
There is historical stuff such as the 1941 Leavenworth papers HERE which I have linked into with the Tank Destroyer Doctrine. Scroll down for other topics. There are a number of Tank Destroyer or TD battalion histories and other such stuff. Photos, battles etc. link to Victory TD.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 3, 2020 14:26:36 GMT
I've bumped into an item of interest. The first US Army tank on tank engagement of WWII. This was M3 Stuarts of 192nd Tank Battalion WikiHistory of 192 TBWas that the first ever US tank fight? I think i was.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 3, 2020 16:30:29 GMT
Chuck, there was over a dozen different models of the M4, maybe as many as 15. Most of them have modifications which are not visible from the outside, such as wet storage or new engine etc, but the ones which do have external differences are the ones below, with cast or welded hull, different calibre main gun and different running gear are; M4(75) 75mm Gun, Welded Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension system
M4A1(75) 75mm Gun, Cast Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension System
M4(105) 105mm Howitzer, Welded Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension system
M4A3(105) HVSS 105mm Howitzer, Welded Hull & Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension system
M4A1(76) 76mm Gun, Welded Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension System
M4A3(76) 76mm Gun, Welded Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension System
M4A3(76) HVSS 76mm Gun, Welded Hull & Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension System
M4A3E2 [Jumbo] 75mm or 76mm Gun, Welded Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension system
Sherman Firefly 17 pdr Gun, Welded Hull & Vertical Volute Spring Suspension System
This should give you the basis for collecting the main models and hopefully all of these should be available in kit form.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Jan 3, 2020 18:44:59 GMT
HR: The Leavenworth Papers are all well done, covering a variety of subjects, some of which will turn on your snooze alarm, but others like the one you posted above on Tank Destroyers and another I recall on Ranger operations are first rate combat histories. Most of them are written by students or faculty at the U S Army School of Advance Military Studies (SAMS) at the Command and General Staff College.
Well Ian it is not only the Sherman's that I am interested in. I also have my eye on a Marder and Tiger at the moment. Based upon what you posted just above, I am sure I will be calling upon your good offices more in this new year.
HR: The 192nd probably was involved in the first US tank on tank. When the National Guard Divisions were reorganized following WWI each division was allotted a tank company. The tank companies we given the same number as the divisions, thus the 29th Tank Company was part of the 29th Division. On the eve of WWII all the National Guard Divisions were called into Federal Service and then stripped of their tank companies. These companies were all put into battalions, numbered 191 to 194. The 192nd and 194th went to the Philippines in the early fall of 41, so the 192nd is probably correct, but it might have been the 194th. The only one still in existence is the 194th in Minnesota, while the other battalions were broken up after the war and the company lineages returned to the States where they too exist but under other names and functions.
At the same time following WWI the National Guard divisions were also authorized and observation squadron. These were the basis of what became the Air National Guard after WWII. Tom's unit was right across the field from one of these early ANG units, and what was the 104th Observation Squadron, became the 104th Fighter Squadron, which today flies A10's
I should add a word to help you understand that last line of mine above. National Guard units follow locality for the continuance of their histories. Most times those histories are at the company level. The unit in Frederick, Maryland a rifle company has existed since 1775. It has belonged to three different regiments (at least) during that time. Same with Company A, 1st Battalion, 116th Infantry. It has been around in Bedford, Virginia since George Washington played tag with Thomas Jefferson, in Patrick Henry's back yard. It was wiped out on D Day (practically) but you can bet on two things. It will always be in Bedford, and Company A will still be there when God turns the lights off.
PS: I should mention that Tom called me yesterday to wish me Happy New Year. He also told me that he is now down on the river, where he intends to permanently reside, and he is having internet problems. So there is no need to be concerned by his temporary absence.
Colt: I have looked through the model tank catalogs and so far have not found an M60A2. I am still looking and when I find one will call upon you to model your tank from your 2nd Armored Division days. I have also been looking for display cases. So far no luck finding the right size, but when I do my intention is to decorate the base appropriately, then reserve a space for the appropriate insignia and mount that on the base as well. I have a fairly good collection, and as an example of what I mean, I would take a model of an M3 Lee and include the insignia of the 13th Armored Regiment
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 3, 2020 20:36:00 GMT
C’mon Chuck, they are all out there, just hope its 1/72 scale you want. link
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 3, 2020 20:42:59 GMT
Yes Chuck, the first WW2 US Tank Vs. Tank battle was fought during the Philippine Campaign; On 22 December 1941, the platoon of M3 Stuarts ran into Japanese Type 95 light tanks from the Imperial Japanese Army 4th Tank Regiment.[the first American tanks manned by US tank crewmen to engage enemy tanks during World War II, the M3's of the 192nd Tank Battalion went up against the equally armed Type 95 light tank, which were armed with the 37mm cannon, but were equipped with diesel engines. The Type 95 light tank had been at the forefront of tank technology when it was fielded in 1935.
In the tank to tank battle that ensued, the lead 192nd tank immediately left the road to maneuver, but was instantly hit and caught fire. The remaining four Stuarts also received hits, but withdrew from the field, only to be destroyed by enemy aircraft later on. Lieutenant Morin was wounded, and he along with his crew were captured.
The Type 95 [HAGO] was armed with the Type 94 37mm, which was not a patch on the 37mm M5 Gun mounted on the US M2A4, in fact the ATG version of the type 94 gun was withdrawn and used an Infantry gun early in the war, mainly because it that bad. The HAGO also had a one-man turret compared to the two-man turret on the M2, The HAGO had 12mm armour compared to 25mm of the M2, so I would have put money on the US that day. Maybe the Japanese tankers were more experienced, I really don't know.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Jan 3, 2020 20:44:26 GMT
That be the one Ian. Hadn't tried Hobby Link Japan yet, but that is my favorite choice for ship models.
Do you know what company of the 192nd. If you do I can tell you what State it originated from.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 3, 2020 20:57:27 GMT
From what I have found Chuck, it was B Company commanded by Captain Donald Hanes, tank platoon, led by LT Ben R. Morin.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Jan 3, 2020 21:30:37 GMT
Company B was formerly the 33rd Tank Company, 33rd Division and came from Maywood, Illinois. I will see what I can find out about any unit still in Maywood.
One additional thing about National Guard unit lineages. Many of the old armories that existed in small town America are long gone, and a lot of new armories have taken their place, that are larger, more modern, and hold more than one unit many times. When a National Guard unit is forced to move from their original location, there is a fifty mile rule. If the move is more than fifty miles they lose their linage. Does not seem fair to me, never did, but that is the rule, supposedly to keep the unit connection with the community from which its members originally came.
Regular Army and Army Reserve units do not have this issue. They both base their linage on following the number. For instance the 1st Infantry is always the First Infantry regardless of where it is stationed.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jan 4, 2020 1:21:44 GMT
Chuck, I haven't seen a model of the M60A2 anywhere, either. Plenty of A1's and A'3s. I know they existed at one time because one of the platoon sergeants in my battalion had built one and painted it to match our battalion's vehicles, then displayed it in our first sergeant's office. He did a great job on it. Don't remember what company made the kit.
I'll be glad to advise you on how they were painted and what was carried on the outside if you can find one.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 4, 2020 4:07:33 GMT
Did not notice. The internet never craps out for tankers. Either that or you are doubly enthusiastic about the project.
Tamiya used to make the kit in 1/35th scale, but it is out of production.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 4, 2020 14:22:04 GMT
AFV Club M60A2 in 1/35. Colt if you want to delete one of your double posts then just press edit and you can get rid of one of them. In the future I am going to add a Tiger platoon to my DAK collection. When the first Tigers arrived in Tunisia they were supported by Pz III Ausf Ns which mounted the same low velocity gun as the early Pz IVs. So I will add two Tiger Is and three Mk IIIs in a large platoon which would fit in with how these tanks operated together in North Africa. You will be surprised just how many obsolete vehicles the DAK had in this theatre, there are Pz Is in every CHQ and at least 10 Pz IIs in every tank company, to beef up the tank numbers. There was at least three vehicles which were exclusive to the DAK and here they are;
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 4, 2020 19:44:48 GMT
Sorry Colt, I should have said the point with the settings circle on to delete.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jan 4, 2020 19:53:22 GMT
Thanks Ian, I got the mistaken post deleted. Also, found a Tamiya M60A2 at AFV. It is a reissue and is just like the ones I served on. A couple of the other kits are later versions which are different from the ones we had, in that mine had bore evacuators on the barrel, even though an evacuator wasn't needed since the A2 had a CBSS system which forced the gases out of the barrel after firing.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 4, 2020 20:30:24 GMT
Did the M60A2 ever see service overseas? Over 500 were built so they were really common, one source says that it suffered the same fate as the Sheridan, concerning the missile system etc.
The M60 did a lot of damage in the gulf war knocking out scores of enemy armour. I wonder if the US Army will need them again after this recent dust up with Iran?
Ian
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