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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 14, 2019 19:12:18 GMT
Recently Elizabeth Warren has asked that Medals Of Honor awarded for the Battle of Wounded Knee be revoked. I know that the criteria for these medals has changed since the beginning of the twentieth century, but I have to wonder whether this is political correctness, Warren wearing here Pocahontas feather( for political advantage/electoral advantage), or a real issue that needs to be addressed, such as a real budget. Below some good stuff from Lee Noyes, this is the 3rd e-mail I have received from Lee, so there must be interest on both sides.
www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr3467/BILLS-115hr3467ih.pdf
Attachments: Below I could not transfer.
1. CBHMA network120619 (Wounded Knee HR3467).pdf
2. U.S. Army Attitudes on the Indian Wars.pdf
-----Original Message----- From: Michael D. Mahler <memahl@centurylink.net> To: patkasa <patkasa@hotmail.com> Cc: Lee Noyes <CLeeNoyes@aol.com> Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2019 4:59 pm Subject: Wounded Knee Again
Mike [Cowdrey]:
I read your support for revoking the awards made to individual soldiers at Wounded Knee, and would just askthat your consider another context (you need not reply to me). To begin with, I agree that the incident was a huge humanitarian disaster that saw a horrendous use of modern fire power against what we might these days call a civilian population. The reallyhorrendous damage was inflicted primarily by the indiscriminate use of the Hotchkiss Gun batteries located on a knoll overlooking the council ground and encampments. Anyone getting an award for servicing those guns would not deserve it. And there is certainlyroom to debate the policy, the hype about the Ghost Dance, and the orders that resulted that led to this catastrophe.
But picture if you will a line of young cavalrymen, with a spattering of veteran sergeants and officers,lined up five yards away from the armed Native Americans when the fire fight broke out. Is it not possible that there were some acts of courage in defending themselves and their troop mates in the chaos that followed? Is it not possible that some deservedto be recognized for their courage in a terrible situation for protecting their buddies or just for standing firm when the temptation to break and run must have been very strong? I don’t know the answer for sure, but I don’t think that it is reasonable forsome to make a judgement on this specific issue some 130 years after the fact. To do so has implications for every serving trooper who puts himself or herself in harm’s way when the going gets tough. Does the awards system make mistakes? Absolutely. Can we judge if mistakes were made in this instance sufficient to revoke the awards? I think it is a huge act of arrogance to believe that you can make that judgment today. That is my only concern.
Mike Mahler — a fellow Armored Division trooper
-----Original Message----- From: William Mahoney <williammahoney0@gmail.com> To: cleenoyes <cleenoyes@aol.com> Sent: Fri, Dec 6, 2019 3:03 pm Subject: Re: Revoking Wounded Knee Medals of Honor ?
Today’s PC world brings out all these same politicians who want to tear down statues of many of our cherished military Generals from the South like Lee, Jackson, Longstreet and somany others. How about the families who provided members meet the call of the U.S. government to battle hostile Indians and settle the West? My family lost Bartholomew Mahoney [at Little Big Horn CLN], and fortunately brothers Daniel and John survived withReno and Benteen 5 miles from Custer's final resting place. These men were at war and gave lives and lived under very difficult circumstances for small pay. Why should we allow these PC Politicians to take away recognition of their sacrifices in war?
William Mahoney, Southwest Harbor, Maine
-----Original Message----- From: Paul Verisario <paulverisario48@gmail.com> To: CLeeNoyes <CLeeNoyes@aol.com> Sent: Fri, Dec 13, 2019 4:39 pm Subject: Revoking Wounded Knee Medals of Honor Proposed Legislation
Let’s get the whole facts out so constructive dialogue can be learned by ALL. There were 25 dead U.S. soldierskilled and 39 wounded by Native Americans! Are we going to take the medals from the 25 dead soldiers and 39 wounded? As a Vietnam War Veteran I didn't run from my country when I was asked to serve. When I gave that oath, I don't agree about the events thattook place at Wounded Knee nor do I agree about the atrocities that took place by Native Americans in other events. I respect other opinions but agree with Lee Noyes that this is a tragic event that should never have taken place, that 250 Native Americansdied, because of an erroneous attack. Please let's leave those 25 soldiers who paid the price by death and not disrespect them.
Best Regards,
SP4 Paul Verisario, Medic
8th Infantry Medical Division 1965-1967
On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 1:34 PM <cleenoyes@aol.com>wrote:
All,
Please feel free to forward or respond to these and other comments on this controversial subject.
Attached are comments by prominent U.S. Army officers during the late 19th Century Indian Wars. General Sherman’sremarks were in reaction to the erroneous 1870 attack by units of the 2nd Cavalry against a peaceful Piegan village on the Marias River in Montana Territory, which had not been the intended military target.
We thank Mike Cowdrey for providing this impassioned viewpoint on the proposed legislation.
Lee Noyes
Attachment: U.S. Army Attitudes on the Indian Wars.pdf
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Post by quincannon on Jan 6, 2021 17:10:51 GMT
I took a look at the citations for these Medal of Honor awards for Wounded Knee this morning when I first woke up. None of them in my opinion justify the award of the Medal of Honor, by the stated standard of that time, and certainly not now. Valor ABOVE and BEYOND was the stated standard then, as it is now. That is also true for about a quarter of the Medals awarded in the Civil War and the other Indian Campaigns.
Do I think these Medals should be revoked? Not all, but most, based upon the citations themselves. Problem is there is no one alive to re-interview, so fairness is similar to the old legal saw of it s better to let ten guilty men go, rather than put one innocent man in jail. Today none of these people, and about half of the other Civil War and Indian Campaign awardees would even be seriously considered for award of the Medal of Honor. As Tom originally stated, the criteria for consideration and award is much more strict. Then the award was the only decoration we had. There was no DSC, no Silver or Bronze Stars. So many of these Medals were awarded because there was nothing else to award a soldier for performance of duty. I want you to all keep in mind that with the lesser decorations, all are for the performance of duty. The DSC and Silver star award alone connote personal valor in the performance of that duty, while all the rest may be awarded for service alone and if valor is attached the award is attended with the V Device. The Medal of Honor alone is for performance ABOVE AND BEYOND the course of duty, and should remain just that way.
Were it me, I would withdraw most of those Medals awarded for Wounded Knee based upon the only remaining evidence, the citations. It's not up to me though,
For more information on this entire subject I suggest a trip to your local library and read "Deeds of Valor" which contain all the Medal of Honor citations from 1862 onward to the end of the Spanish American War, save a few that were awarded after the book was published. In it you will find incredible accounts of actions some of which would merit the award of the Medal three times over, and other that were awarded for little more than showing up.
If any of you, including the Indians, Elizabeth Warren, Tom, or Duane expect life to be fair, I've got news for you IT AIN'T, and NEVER WAS.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 7, 2021 18:25:50 GMT
While on a certain level I agree with Chuck regarding the the standards for the award. There is much more/less that went into it back then. Benteen was asked about the award for certain individuals in his company during the Battle of the Little Big Horn, his reply was "all or none." Very simply put often times an officer put a soldier in for that recognition, and Congress did very little due diligence. Did Tom Custer deserve two such awards for snatching two battle flags from fleeing Rebels? Did Charles Varnum deserve the one he received for his actions in a conflict at Drexel Mission following the Wounded Knee Massacre? Varnum had his pipe stem shot off while holding that line that day. Today my own officer might have shot me for smoking on a firing line. Varnum's citation does not mention the pipe.
The Bronze Star, Navy Cross, and Silver Stars were not around then. We and the Military know of the difference in time and Criteria. Many brave men whose names would have been lost to history but for that award.
Listed below are Black recipients' from the ACW
Aaron Anderson Navy Landsman USS Wyandank (1847) Mattox Creek, Virginia March 17, 1865 "Participating with a boat crew in the clearing of Mattox Creek, L/man Anderson carried out his duties courageously in the face of a devastating fire which cut away half the oars, pierced the launch in many places and cut the barrel off a musket being fired at the enemy." — Bruce Anderson Army Private 142nd New York Volunteer Infantry Second Battle of Fort Fisher, North Carolina January 15, 1865 "Voluntarily advanced with the head of the column and cut down the palisading." — William H. Barnes Army Private 38th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Among the first to enter the enemy's works; although wounded."
Powhatan Beaty Army First Sergeant 5th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Took command of his company, all the officers having been killed or wounded, and gallantly led it."
Robert Blake Navy Sailor USS Marblehead (1861) off Legareville in the Stono River, Johns Island, South Carolina December 25, 1863 "n an engagement with the enemy on John's Island. Serving the rifle gun, Blake, an escaped slave, carried out his duties bravely throughout the engagement which resulted in the enemy's abandonment of positions, leaving a caisson and one gun behind." — James H. Bronson Army First Sergeant 5th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Took command of his company, all the officers having been killed or wounded, and gallantly led it." — William H. Brown Navy Landsman USS Brooklyn (1858) Battle of Mobile Bay, Alabama August 5, 1864 "[R]emained steadfast at his post and performed his duties in the powder division throughout the furious action which resulted in the surrender of the prize rebel ram Tennessee and in the damaging and destruction of batteries at Fort Morgan." — Wilson Brown Navy Landsman USS Hartford Battle of Mobile Bay, Alabama August 5, 1864 "Knocked unconscious into the hold of the ship when an enemy shell burst fatally wounded a man on the ladder above him, Brown, upon regaining consciousness, promptly returned to the shell whip on the berth deck and zealously continued to perform his duties although 4 of the 6 men at this station had been either killed or wounded by the enemy's terrific fire."
William Harvey Carney Army Sergeant 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Battle of Fort Wagner, Morris Island, South Carolina July 18, 1863 "[G]rasped the flag, led the way to the parapet, and planted the colors thereon. When the troops fell back he brought off the flag, under a fierce fire in which he was twice severely wounded.
Decatur Dorsey Army Corporal 39th United States Colored Infantry Regiment Battle of the Crater, Petersburg, Virginia July 30, 1864 "Planted his colors on the Confederate works in advance of his regiment, and when the regiment was driven back to the Union works he carried the colors there and bravely rallied the men." — Thomas English Navy Signal Quartermaster United States NavyUSS New Ironsides Aboard USS New Ironsides, First and Second Battles of Fort Fisher Dec 1864 – Jan 1865 For extraordinary heroism in action while serving on board the U.S.S. New Iron sides during action in several attacks on Fort Fisher, North Carolina, 24 and 25 December 1864; and 13, 14, and 15 January 1865. The ship steamed in and took the lead in the ironclad division close inshore and immediately opened its starboard battery in a barrage of well-directed fire to cause several fires and explosions and dismount several guns during the first two days of fighting. Taken under fire as she steamed into position on 13 January, the New Ironsides fought all day and took on ammunition at night despite severe weather conditions. When the enemy came out of his bombproofs to defend the fort against the storming party, the ship's battery disabled nearly every gun on the fort facing the shore before the cease-fire orders were given by the flagship.
Sgt Major Christian Fleetwood Army Sergeant Major 4th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Seized the colors, after 2 color bearers had been shot down, and bore them nobly through the fight."
James Daniel Gardner Army Private 36th United States Colored Infantry Regiment Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Rushed in advance of his brigade, shot a rebel officer who was on the parapet rallying his men, and then ran him through with his bayonet."
James H. Harris Army Sergeant 38th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Gallantry in the assault"
Thomas R. Hawkins Army Private 6th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Deep Bottom, Virginia July 21, 1864 "Rescue of regimental colors." — Alfred B. Hilton* Army Sergeant 4th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "When the regimental color bearer fell, this soldier seized the color and carried it forward, together with the national standard, until disabled at the enemy's inner line."
Milton M. Holland Army Sergeant Major 5th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Took command of Company C, after all the officers had been killed or wounded, and gallantly led it." — Miles James Army Corporal 36th United States Colored Infantry Regiment Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Having had his arm mutilated, making immediate amputation necessary, he loaded and discharged his piece with one hand and urged his men forward; this within 30 yards of the enemy's works."
Alexander Kelly Army First Sergeant 6th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Gallantly seized the colors, which had fallen near the enemy's lines of abatis, raised them and rallied the men at a time of confusion and in a place of the greatest danger."
John Henry Lawson Navy Landsman USS Hartford Battle of Mobile Bay, Alabama August 5, 1864 Although "Wounded in the leg and thrown violently against the side of the ship when an enemy shell killed or wounded the 6-man crew as the shell whipped on the berth deck, Lawson, upon regaining his composure, promptly returned to his station and, although urged to go below for treatment, steadfastly continued his duties..."
James Mifflin Navy Engineer's Cook USS Brooklyn (1858) Battle of Mobile Bay, Alabama August 5, 1864 "[R]emained steadfast at his post and performed his duties in the powder division throughout the furious action which resulted in the surrender of the prize rebel ram Tennessee and in the damaging and destruction of batteries at Fort Morgan."
Joachim Pease Navy Seaman USS Kearsarge off Cherbourg, France June 19, 1864 "Acting as loader on the No. 2 gun during this bitter engagement, Pease exhibited marked coolness and good conduct and was highly recommended by the divisional officer for gallantry under fire."
Robert Pinn Army First Sergeant 5th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Took command of his company after all the officers had been killed or wounded and gallantly led it in battle." — Edward Ratcliff Army First Sergeant 38th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Commanded and gallantly led his company after the commanding officer had been killed; was the first enlisted man to enter the enemy's works."
Andrew Jackson Smith Army Corporal 55th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Battle of Honey Hill, South Carolina November 30, 1864 "Saving his regimental colors, after the color bearer was killed during al bloody charge called the Battle of Honey Hill, South Carolina" — Charles Veale Army Private 4th U.S. Colored Infantry Battle of Chaffin's Farm, Virginia September 29, 1864 "Seized the national colors after 2 color bearers had been shot down close to the enemy's works, and bore them through the remainder of the battle.
Blacks during the Indian Wars
John Denny Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Las Animas Canyon, New Mexico September 18, 1879 "Removed a wounded comrade, under a heavy fire, to a place of safety."
Clinton Greaves Army Corporal 9th Cavalry Regiment Florida Mountains, Luna County, New Mexico January 24, 1877 "While part of a small detachment to persuade a band of renegade Apache Indians to surrender, his group was surrounded. Cpl. Greaves in the center of the savage hand-to-hand fighting, managed to shoot and bash a gap through the swarming Apaches, permitting his companions to break free."
Henry Johnson Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Milk River, Colorado October 2, 1879– October 5, 1879 "Voluntarily left fortified shelter and under heavy fire at close range made the rounds of the pits to instruct the guards, fought his way to the creek and back to bring water to the wounded." George Jordan Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Fort Tularosa and Carrizo Canyon, New Mexico May 14, 1880 and August 12, 1881 For repulsing a larger force of Indians on two separate occasions
Isaiah Mays Army Corporal 24th Infantry Regiment Cedar Springs, Arizona May 11, 1889 "Gallantry in the fight between Paymaster Wham's escort and robbers. Mays walked and crawled 2 miles to a ranch for help."
William McBryar Army Sergeant 10th Cavalry Regiment Salt River, north of Globe, Arizona March 7, 1890 "Distinguished himself for coolness, bravery and marksmanship while his troop was in pursuit of hostile Apache Indians." — Adam Paine Army Private Indian Scouts Canyon Blanco, Staked Plains, Texas (Red River War) September 26, 1874 – September 27, 1874 "Rendered invaluable service to Col. R. S. Mackenzie, 4th U.S. Cavalry, during this engagement." — Isaac Payne Army Trumpeter Indian Scouts Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 "With 3 other men, he participated in a charge against 25 hostiles while on a scouting patrol."
Thomas Shaw Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Carrizo Canyon, Cuchillo Negra Mountains, New Mexico August 12, 1881 "Forced the enemy back after stubbornly holding his ground in an extremely exposed position and prevented the enemy's superior numbers from surrounding his command." — Emanuel Stance Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Kickapoo Springs, Texas May 20, 1870 "Gallantry on scout after Indians" — Augustus Walley Army Private 9th Cavalry Regiment Cuchillo Negro Mountains, New Mexico August 16, 1881 "Bravery in action with hostile Apaches" — John Ward Army Sergeant Indian Scouts, 24th Infantry Regiment Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 "With 3 other men, he participated in a charge against 25 hostiles while on a scouting patrol"
Moses Williams Army First Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Cuchillo Negro Mountains, New Mexico August 16, 1881 "Rallied a detachment, skillfully conducted a running flight of 3 or 4 hours, and by his coolness, bravery, and unflinching devotion to duty in standing by his commanding officer in an exposed position under a heavy fire from a large party of Indians saved the lives of at least 3 of his comrades." — William Othello Wilson Army Corporal 9th Cavalry Regiment Sioux Campaign December 30, 1890 "Bravery"
Brent Woods Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Gavilan Canyon, New Mexico August 19, 1881 "Saved the lives of his comrades and citizens of the detachment"
Thomas Boyne Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Mimbres Mountains and near Ojo Caliente, New Mexico May 29, 1879 and September 27, 1879 "Bravery in action"
Benjamin Brown Army Sergeant 24th Infantry Regiment Arizona May 11, 1889 "Although shot in the abdomen, in a fight between a paymaster's escort and robbers, did not leave the field until again wounded through both arms."
The following is an interesting list to include Indian Scouts and modern Native Americans.
Co-Rux-Te-Chod-Ish Pawnee Army Sergeant Indian Wars Republican River, Kansas July 8, 1869 "Ran out from the command in pursuit of a dismounted Indian; was shot down and badly wounded by a bullet from his own command"
Chiquito White Mountain Apache Army Scout Indian Wars Arizona Territory Winter of 1871–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Jim White Mountain Apache Army Sergeant Indian Wars Winter of 1871–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Machol Apache Army Private Indian Wars Arizona Territory 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Nannasaddie White Mountain Apache Army Scout Indian Wars Arizona Territory 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Nantaje White Mountain Apache Army Scout Indian Wars Arizona Territory 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
William Alchesay White Mountain Apache Army Sergeant Indian Wars Arizona Territory Winter of 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Blanquet Apache Army Scout Indian Wars Arizona Territory Winter of 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Elsatsoosu Apache Army Corporal Indian Wars Arizona Territory Winter of 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Kelsay White Mountain Apache Army Scout Indian Wars Arizona Territory Winter of 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Kosoha White Mountain Apache Army Scout Indian Wars Arizona Territory Winter of 1872–1873 For his "conduct during campaigns and engagements with Apaches"
Adam Paine Black Seminole Army Private Indian Wars Canyon Blanco tributary of the Red River, Texas September 26, 1874 – September 27, 1874 "Rendered invaluable service to Col. R. S. Mackenzie, 4th U.S. Cavalry, during this engagement"
Pompey Factor Black Seminole Army Private Indian Wars Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 With three others, charged a numerically superior force
Isaac Payne Black Seminole Army Trumpeter Indian Wars Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 With three others, charged a numerically superior force
John Ward Black Seminole Army Sergeant Indian Wars Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 With three others, charged a numerically superior force
Rowdy Apache Army Sergeant Indian Wars Arizona Territory March 7, 1890
Pappy Boyington Sioux Marine Corps Major World War II Central Solomons area, Pacific Ocean September 12, 1943 – January 3, 1944 Led his squadron in a series of missions against superior numbers
Ernest Childers Muscogee[2] Army Second Lieutenant World War II Oliveto, Italy September 22, 1943 Although injured, killed two snipers and attacked two machine gun nests
Jack C. Montgomery Cherokee[2] Army First Lieutenant World War II near Padiglione, Italy February 22, 1944 Single-handedly attacked two German positions and took dozens of prisoners
Van T. Barfoot Choctaw[2] Army Technical Sergeant World War II near Carano, Italy May 23, 1944 Single-handedly destroyed two machine gun nests, took prisoners, and disabled a tank Roy W. Harmon* Army Sergeant World War II near Casaglia, Italy July 12, 1944 Single-handedly attacked three German positions although wounded
Ernest E. Evans* Cherokee/Muscogee[3] Navy Commander World War II off Samar, Philippines October 25, 1944 In battle off Samar, where a major portion of the Japanese Battle fleet surprised the Taffy 3 escort carrier task unit, Evans immediately attacked with his single destroyer, the Johnston, against overwhelming odds. At the cost of his own life, his ship, and much of his crew, they helped to inflict the amazing defeat on the enemy battleships and cruisers by a far inferior American force.
John N. Reese, Jr.* Army Private First Class World War II Paco Railroad Station, Manila, Philippines February 9, 1945 With another soldier, attacked a Japanese-held railroad station
Mitchell Red Cloud, Jr.* Ho-Chunk[2] Army Corporal Korean War near Chonghyon, Korea November 5, 1950 Maintained an exposed position, continued to fight after being wounded
Harvey Chickasaw[4] Army Captain Korean War near Taemi-Dong, Korea March 9, 1951 Led his men against a series of emplacements, continued to lead after being wounded
Tony K. Burris* Choctaw[5] Army Sergeant First Class Korean War near Mundung-ni, Korea October 8, 1951 – October 9, 1951 Single-handedly attacked two positions although wounded, killed while attacking a third
Woodrow W. Keeble* Sioux[6] Army Master Sergeant Korean War near Sangsan-ni, Korea October 20, 1951 Single-handedly attacked three machine gun nests
Charles George* Cherokee[2] Army Private First Class Korean War near Songnae-dong, Korea November 30, 1952 Smothered the blast of a grenade with his body
James E. Williams Cherokee Navy Boatswain's Mate 1st Class Vietnam War Mekong River, South Vietnam October 31, 1966 Destroyed 65 boats and over 1,000 enemy
Michael E. Thornton Cherokee[2] Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Vietnam War South Vietnam October 31, 1972 Through a hail of fire he succeeded in removing his seriously wounded superior officer then towed him two hours in the water until being rescued
John Denny Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Las Animas Canyon, New Mexico September 18, 1879 "Removed a wounded comrade, under a heavy fire, to a place of safety."
Pompey Factor Army Private Indian Scouts Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 "With 3 other men, he participated in a charge against 25 hostiles while on a scouting patrol." — Clinton Greaves Army Corporal 9th Cavalry Regiment Florida Mountains, Luna County, New Mexico January 24, 1877 "While part of a small detachment to persuade a band of renegade Apache Indians to surrender, his group was surrounded. Cpl. Greaves in the center of the savage hand-to-hand fighting, managed to shoot and bash a gap through the swarming Apaches, permitting his companions to break free."
Henry Johnson Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Milk River, Colorado October 2, 1879– October 5, 1879 "Voluntarily left fortified shelter and under heavy fire at close range made the rounds of the pits to instruct the guards, fought his way to the creek and back to bring water to the wounded." George Jordan Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Fort Tularosa and Carrizo Canyon, New Mexico May 14, 1880 and August 12, 1881 For repulsing a larger force of Indians on two separate occasions
Isaiah Mays Army Corporal 24th Infantry Regiment Cedar Springs, Arizona May 11, 1889 "Gallantry in the fight between Paymaster Wham's escort and robbers. Mays walked and crawled 2 miles to a ranch for help."
William McBryar Army Sergeant 10th Cavalry Regiment Salt River, north of Globe, Arizona March 7, 1890 "Distinguished himself for coolness, bravery and marksmanship while his troop was in pursuit of hostile Apache Indians." — Adam Paine Army Private Indian Scouts Canyon Blanco, Staked Plains, Texas (Red River War) September 26, 1874 – September 27, 1874 "Rendered invaluable service to Col. R. S. Mackenzie, 4th U.S. Cavalry, during this engagement." — Isaac Payne Army Trumpeter Indian Scouts Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 "With 3 other men, he participated in a charge against 25 hostiles while on a scouting patrol."
Thomas Shaw Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Carrizo Canyon, Cuchillo Negra Mountains, New Mexico August 12, 1881 "Forced the enemy back after stubbornly holding his ground in an extremely exposed position and prevented the enemy's superior numbers from surrounding his command." — Emanuel Stance Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Kickapoo Springs, Texas May 20, 1870 "Gallantry on scout after Indians" — Augustus Walley Army Private 9th Cavalry Regiment Cuchillo Negro Mountains, New Mexico August 16, 1881 "Bravery in action with hostile Apaches" — John Ward Army Sergeant Indian Scouts, 24th Infantry Regiment Pecos River, Texas April 25, 1875 "With 3 other men, he participated in a charge against 25 hostiles while on a scouting patrol"
Moses Williams Army First Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Cuchillo Negro Mountains, New Mexico August 16, 1881 "Rallied a detachment, skillfully conducted a running flight of 3 or 4 hours, and by his coolness, bravery, and unflinching devotion to duty in standing by his commanding officer in an exposed position under a heavy fire from a large party of Indians saved the lives of at least 3 of his comrades." — William Othello Wilson Army Corporal 9th Cavalry Regiment Sioux Campaign December 30, 1890 "Bravery"
Brent Woods Army Sergeant 9th Cavalry Regiment Gavilan Canyon, New Mexico August 19, 1881 "Saved the lives of his comrades and citizens of the detachment"
Some of the lists are out of order, incomplete, and do not include the Spanish American War. The point again being that many of these heros names would be lost to history, but for a somewhat flawed MOH,
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jan 7, 2021 23:55:56 GMT
I fail to see the point here, but here is a point you missed. Congress does not exercise any due diligence in the award of the Medal of Honor, in any but the most very unusual instances. They generally place their trust in the awarding authority. The award is given in their name, by the President, and presented to the awardee, by the President or his designated representative. The awards are approved by the Services themselves then approved by the Service Secretary. It would take legislation for Congress to override the award of the Medal that is presented in their name, just like any other piece of legislation. They better be damned careful if they do though, for that would not sit at all well with the American public, if they acted under any but the most pure motivation.
To illustrate the last above point, it may seem inappropriate for the Medal to be awarded to an accused child molester, HOWEVER, being a child molester has nothing to do with the act of valor, that instigated the award. It is an entirely separate matter altogether. On the other hand Congress would be fully justified in halting or revoking the awarding the Medal, if the award was found to be done in a fraudulent manner, or if the awardee happened to be the Secretary of the Army's brother in law, and was awarded simply because the awardee was the Secretary of the Army's brother in law. Don't laugh you flock of silly geese. Both have been attempted.
So why in the hell did you list only awardees that were Black Tom? Don't understand what you were trying to prove here. All of those citations you listed are insufficient for the award of the Medal then if one were to be honest with one's self. That is not to say that some of those listed should not have received the Medal by virtue of their actions. It means only that the citations are insufficient. Some of those people BASED ON THE CITATIONS ALONE might qualify for the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks, but nothing more.
All this is really a black eye for the Services. Washington saw the need for the recognition of soldiers that elevated them above their peers with the Purple Heart, which read and still reads FOR MILITARY MERIT. After the Revolution that award was discontinued, and no award existed until 1862 with the establishment of the Medal of Honor. That establishment was not nearly enough to credit various levels of valor, service, and achievement. This would not be corrected until World War I, so if criticism is leveled at the haphazard manner in which Medal was awarded, the services largely brought that on themselves. This is one area where Congress would have acted promptly, and the Services did not care enough to ask,
Should valor be awarded? Yes, and the award should be appropriate and commensurate with the deed.
AMENDMENT: I neglected to mention that the Medal of Honor, unlike all the rest, is presented in the name of Congress simply because Congress is the direct representative of the American people, not the Services, or the Administration, so reality is that the American People confer on the person being awarded their appreciation and thanks.
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Post by Beth on Jan 9, 2021 3:27:51 GMT
I tend to agree with you Beth. While I think there should have been more than one type of award during the 19th Century, we have to live with what was, not what we might wish it to be. My real heartburn is not the award of the Medal itself. Obviously someone thought that someone deserved the award. My heartburn is for the lack of a more specific and detailed citation, so we in a later day can see what took place, and make up our own minds how deserving the award was. There are many awards of the Medal of Honor, such as the one awarded to Lieutenant Alonzo Cushing USA, that were more than well deserved, but I do find it a little difficult to award the Medals of Honor to those who fetched water at LBH. It was the deed itself not rising to the level of ABOVE AND BEYOND, and has no reflection upon the soldiers involved doing their duty bravely. You always expect bravery, and VALOR should come as a little bit of most welcome surprised, in my view. I think that the changes in warfare itself means that some of the reasons are lost to us. It took me a bit to understand (when I first took an interest in a couple of battles) to understand why capturing a flag would be considered both valor and important. To me capture the flag was a game we played as kids. I had to wrap my head around that at one time, the importance of a flag and that you knew where your lines (and safety) were by the flag and that to capture or defend that flag was extremely important in a battle. I suspect that the contemporary writers to the early awards never thought that in the future we would what a more definitive account of whu a medal was awarded. I will have to disagree with you though if the water fetchers deserved Medals of Honor. I think it was one heck of a brave deed they did by the standards of the time. However that is what history is about, you, I and everyone here comes at it from different sets of experiences. I always look forward to learning to see things from other sets of eyes.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 9, 2021 19:56:08 GMT
Why do you think that bevy of swine attacked the Capitol Building Beth? Thanks to the things you point to, namely TV and the Internet, but more broadly the rapid advance of communications in general the speed of transition from what we were to what we can be has been become exponentially faster. Those people are not prepared for that, and it scares the hell out of them, so they cling to someone who tells them that we must go back to what was. The thing about history, is that it never moves backward. It moves in only one direction, and that direction is forward.
Far from dragging this thread off topic, the Medal of Honor subject matter is just one illustration of the point I am trying to make here. Today the standard is much more stringent. That has happened over time, because our standards of excellence have become more stringent.
If you have not changed more rapidly in the last ten years then you have been asleep. Look at you daughters. Do you think they hold the views they do by accident? No, they hold those views they do, because you have changed, and passed that change along like a parent does. I was just told a few moments ago, by my daughter, that I have mellowed. Maybe I have, but I don't really think so. I am still a right of center conservative, but the thread that runs through my life, I believe, is that to me being a conservative means conserving the most liberal undertaking known to mankind, government by the consent of the governed. If that ain't liberal, I don't know what is.
Generations to come will over time correct those things that plague us today. It will take time, but it will happen.
I do want to remind you though that bigotry is the natural state of human affairs. It is the acting upon bigotry for its own sake that is the evil. I am still bigoted about the Barber of Seville, I don't like it, when compared to say Carmen (my favorite), but I am listening to it this afternoon anyway, as a penance for my many sins.
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