Indian Locations and Numbers in the Valley

[azranger]

Here is something from Gordon Harper that might be of interest.

"Post by on Jan 6, 2009 at 9:08pm
Fred:

Actually, the camps extended well "north" of Ford B, almost as far as the Ford D area, where the last of the Cheyenne camps was located, and there probably was another small camp still farther downstream and close by, occupied only by warriors. There was another warriors-only camp, considerably larger, upstream, west of the Hunkapa camps.

I hope to pin down the specific locations of these two warrior camps in 2010, but there is no question but that they did exist [in my mind anyway], based upon NDN histories - both Lakota and Cheyenne. Cheyennes pointed out the location of their camps to me in 1960, and I hope to have Lakotas with me in 2010, along with a Cheyenne tribal historian.

Whether or not Custer had scouts out from F Company after crossing MTC to head north [who can specifically identify them?], he did, according to evidence, have flankers out to the east as he went over the high ground toward SSR - on the ridge later occupied by the hostiles besieging Reno. These flankers were likely not from F Company, but more likely from L. The number is not known to me.

Regards,

Gordie"

[yanmacca]

Geordie says in his book, his reasons for how far the Indian village reached, he mentions a creek which the Cheyenne said, seperated the two camps, and the Cheyenne village was north of this creek, I think the creek is 'chasing squaw creek'.
If true then this puts the Cheyenne well north of ford B and maybe around 'Gibbons Ford C'

[deadwoodgultch]

Thanks Steve, as you know I needed somewhere to tag this, We were lucky to spend time with that Tribal Historian, I hope we can spend more time with he and Donovan next year. Without the hangers on.

In that vein I want to begin dispelling the myth that the warriors who left Reno caused the demise of GAC et el.. There were plenty enough warriors to go around. With regard to your post regarding the extent of the village to the north/down stream, 1LT John F, McBain(9th Cavalry)- With Gibbon's command was an odometer cart, and the instrument registered the camp at 4&3/4 miles long; now let anyone familiar with Indian ways camping picture to himself the fighting strength of that camp. I never did and did not believe that there was a soul less than 6,000fighting men. (McBain "With Gibbon on the Sioux Campaign Of 1876").

Other estimates of NA numbers:

Benteen 3,000
Col. William S. Bracket 12,000- 15,000 NA.s 4,000-5000 warriors (Montana Historical society).
Crazy Horse 1800 lodges and 400 wickiups. At least 7,000 warriors, any number of transients and hangers on. (South Dakota Historical Society)
Captain Philo Clark 3,500 warriors to include 1,200 lodges 400 wickiups.
Edgerly finally settled on no less than 3,000
Lt De Rudio 3,000 to 4,000
Fred Dustin 10,000- 12,000 people 3,000 3,500 warriors. Dustin corresponded with and interviewed a number of surviving Indians, civilian interpreters, and soldiers starting in the early 1900s for compilation of their personal narratives of the 1876 fight at Little Bighorn. He spent over 30 years researching the battle and its participants.

Godfrey at least 3,000 to cover the ground.

George Bird Grinnell 4,500-6,000

Luther Hare estimated 1500 lodged and 400 wickiups, 4,000 warriors

Hereendeen 1800 lodges, 3,500 warriors

Wooden Leg through Marquis 3,000 or more warriors.

To be continued.

Regards,

Tom

[deadwoodgultch]

James McLaughlin, Indian Agent minimum strength 2,500-3,000.
Myles Moylan There was a distinct separate camp of wickiups, 3,500-4,000 warriors.
Reno, 2500 min. some think as many as 5,00.
Spotted Horn Bull, in 1883 said 5,000 would cover warrior and chiefs.
Varnum, 4,000 warriors many of whom were not engaged.
White Man Runs Him 4,000-5,000( Custer Myth.
Pvt. Windolph, 2,000-3,000
1st Sgt. John Ryan In his book, Ryan claims there were usually 5 or 6 warriors per lodge. Ryan estimated Indian strength at Pompey's Pillar Fight in 1873 at 1,500, he makes the point that in 1873 Sitting Bull was not at that time joined by any force of agency Indians. He continues to state I have seen Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa, Apache, and Comanche move together in the Indian Territory and in Kansas years before while campaigning with Custer. He continues on to state that there were double that many moving out from the LBH camp.

Many later day writers tend to trim these numbers rather liberally for one reason or other.

Regards,

Tom 

[deadwoodgultch]

The above posts tell us several things. 1.The Cheyenne were probably closer to Ford D, the length of the village and more warriors in that area due to the inordinate number of wickiups, they were not family dwellings. 2. It did not matter whether the warriors left Reno or not, there were plenty up north to surround and whack Custer. 3. Whether Benteen stopped to aid Reno, and wait for the packs there was no way in hell they could have gotten through to Custer, the terrain and numbers of warriors would have abrogated any possibility to comply with those orders, witness the movement to Weir and the result. 4. There were enough watchers of the Reno area in the valley and elsewhere to tip off the other warriors of any movement from the south.

To add to this, Custer was a bright guy. Not bright enough to share plan with his subordinates, but still and all, bright enough not to leave three companies with their thumb up it, while he went to Ford D. All he accomplished was, after ordering support, decided to out distance it. Then he found out just how many warriors Reno did not occupy.

Me thinks he should have supported Reno in the valley, with the whole command, as he stated. His support would have been a short distance behind. Enough of woulda, shoulda, coulda, on my part, the commander blew it.

If you disagree lets hear it, otherwise there is no further reason to continue to study this battle.

Regards,
Tom



Regards,
Tom

[mac]

I like it and I concur.

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac, I am sure that Steve and I will continue to develop our Cheyenne sources to follow up on the northern most end of the village and their actions vs GAC in the Ford D area. We want to find out and develop their opinion of Cavalry numbers north of LSH, not just at the Ford environs.

Regards,
Tom

[azranger]

Where do you think this is located and who is involved?

[deadwoodgultch]

Ah yes and it seems that more soldiers are ditch/ravine.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

Deep Ravine?

I can't see anyone in that image who I know, no officers or Crazy Horse, except for a bloke in the ravine who looks as though he is waring a football jumper.

[mac]

Soldiers dead in Deep Ravine and others running past it. Matches the markers.

On soldier looking over his shoulder at warriors chasing him down from Cemetery Ridge. 

Other warriors riding away to....where?


There was a warrior who had a sabre I think, but I cannot remember his name.

Whose drawing AZ?

Cheers

[azranger]

Hi  Mac

He was a Kit Fox and they were defending the Sacred Arrows which I believe were in a Tipi near the river and below Deep Ravine.

Regards

Steve

[mac]

I think the saber is Yellow Nose, more on this later.

Cheers

[mac]

[Geary, Oklahoma, 1911]
YELLOW NOSE SAID TO BE THE INDIAN WHO KILLED CUSTER ... The belief [is] firmly held among the old warriors of the Northern Cheyenne and Arapahoe tribes in Oklahoma that Custer was slain by Yellow Nose, a Ute Indian now living on his allotment on the North Canadian River, near the town of Geary, Ok. The Indians have believed this for thirty-five years. Yellow Nose, who is not a boaster, merely says that he killed a man, an officer, who, other Indians said, was Custer. Yellow Nose had not seen Custer prior to the battle. [Note: Yellow Nose presently ranks #11 on the Astonisher.com Who Killed Custer List.]
This man, whose tribesmen so resolutely state he took Custer's life, is now about 57 years old and well preserved, save that he has been blind for many years from a blow across the forehead in the Little Big Horn fight, which eventually destroyed his eyesight. His body is scarred with many wounds received in battle. He will open his shirt and point to a hardened spot on his chest where a bullet tore through him when McKenzie's [sic] men gave battle in Powder River canyon. Yellow Nose was peering over an embankment, not suspecting that any danger was near at hand, when he was shot from ambush.
When Yellow Nose was 4 years old he was captured from his people by the Northern Cheyennes, one of whose women he married. He was a scout under General Lawton at Fort Robinson and later was given similar employment at Fort Reno. On the plains country he met the French-Cheyenne scout, Edward [sic] Guerrier, and their friendship brought Yellow Nose to Oklahoma in the early 70s. There was a constant passing to and from of the Northern and Southern Indians in those days.
Yellow Nose tells a circumstantial story which old warriors in Oklahoma support with their own testimony and evidence that he was the man who killed Custer. A number of Southern Cheyennes from Oklahoma were visiting the Northern Cheyennes at the time of the battle and took part in the engagement. They brought numerous relics from the battlefields to Oklahoma. In the neighborhood of Cantonment, Ok., may still be found guns taken from the dead troopers of the Seventh Cavalry. For a number of years George Bent, a mixed-blood Cheyenne who lives at Colony, Ok., owned Custer's pocket compass' given to him by Bull Head, a Southern Cheyenne. Bent sold the compass in 1879 to George Reynolds of the Indian trading firm of Lee & Reynolds, then at Camp Supply, Ok. As the story runs among the Oklahoma Indians, Custer and his men were first decoyed to the locality broken by ravines by Long Sioux and a companion. Long Sioux lives near Cantonment.
When the grass began greening on the plains in the spring of 1876, Yellow Nose started with his wife to visit her relatives in the North. Throughout the Sioux and Northern Cheyenne country there was great unrest among the Indians, and it was apparent that war was at hand. Yellow Nose lingered until it was unsafe for him to attempt to journey home, as small bands of Indians were in as great danger of losing their lives as were white men, if caught traveling through the country. About the middle of June war parties began bringing in reports of the presence of troops in the Tongue River country, and Yellow Nose went several times with scout parties to observe the soldiers. Finally the Indians gave battle on the Rosebud, and then retired in the direction of the Little Big Horn, Yellow Nose moving with them.
A report spread among the Indians that troops were advancing with Shoshone scouts, and inasmuch that General Crook had retired to the southward, the Indians expected the advance from that direction. To their utter surprise the troops came from the east under the command of Custer. There was much bitterness against Custer among the Indians because of his alleged massacre of the Black Kettle village of Southern Cheyennes, on the Washita River, in Indian Territory, now Oklahoma.
The village of the different tribes stretched for several miles along the west bank of the Little Big Horn. Yellow Nose went from village to village on the night of June 24 to see the dancing. Strict orders had been given by the war chiefs forbidding the firing of guns in camp, as the near approach of the troops was to be made known by two mounted warriors, who were to ride at full speed and fire two shots as they passed each village.
The battle was on Sunday, a warm, bright day. Farthest down the river was the camp of the Northern Cheyennes, where stood the lodge of the great war chief Crazy Horse. About noon, Crazy Horse, Yellow Nose and other Indians were in the river bathing when the firing of guns was heard up the river. [Note: Red Horse also said the battle began "about noon."] Reno and his men had crossed the Little Big Horn and were charging the upper villages, only to be beaten back in confusion and under such circumstances as came near dishonoring Reno.
Yellow Nose does not speak nor understand the English language. What he said in recounting his experiences was translated by his friend, Edward Guerrier, the old scout. Here he plunged into the detail of his narrative. Yellow Nose was confident that the Sioux would have destroyed Reno had they [the Sioux] not charged so quickly and eagerly in defense of their women and children, who thereby were given time to scramble onto ponies or flee on foot and escape westward. Had the Sioux held back and let Reno come further down the river they could have surrounded him and cut him off from the hills in which he afterwards found refuge.
Yellow Nose and his companions were delayed in rallying to the alarm, owing to the absence of their ponies, which had been driven away to graze. By the time they got their mounts they discovered another body of troops eastward across the river. The Cheyennes divided, some going to resist Reno while others, including Yellow Nose, crossed the Little Big Horn where a small stream or gulch debouched from the east.
Climbing to a promontory formed by this gulch, the Indians saw troops advancing toward them along the crest of the divide that ran back from the Little Big Horn. Yellow Nose was mounted on a fleet, wiry pony in advance of his companions, whom the soldiers evidently thought were few in numbers, as the crossing was difficult at this point. The mistake of the soldiers became quickly apparent when Indians were seen literally springing from the ground. The galloping cavalrymen pulled down to a trot. The Cheyennes were not so well armed as the Sioux, who carried quantities of ammunition fastened around their waists, chests and arms.
The soldiers fired first from their horses, dismounting only after they saw that the Indians were not intimidated. The regimental band began playing to the astonishment of the Indians, but the musicians threw away their instruments for guns.
The soldiers changed from a stand to a retreat as they were crowded upon by increasing and overwhelming numbers. Yellow Nose said that they made three stands. It was the purpose of the Indians to get in the rear of the troops and gain the east slope of the ridge. This the soldiers bravely resisted, and in their fury to dislodge the troops the Indians precipitately exposed themselves to a galling fire in the open. It was not until the close of the fight that the soldiers were driven to the west slope of the ridge.
At first the soldiers knelt and took deliberate aim, each fourth man holding the horses. "Some stood up and shot like this," said Yellow Nose, leaning far forward and clutching an imaginary gun. As the confusion, perhaps despair, increased after the retreat from the first stand, each soldier took possession of his own horse, possibly to be better able to escape if the battle went against them.
Yellow Nose declared that this merely hastened the disaster that followed. The held horses grew wild with fright, and their rearing and plunging made it impossible for the soldiers to shoot with steadiness and accuracy, many pulling the trigger while their guns pointed straight above them. Riderless horses stampeded in every direction, leaving their dead behind, and were caught by the Indians and taken across the river.
Yellow Nose had never seen Custer. He twice encountered the man whose body was found after the battle and identified by the Indians as that of Custer. Yellow Nose had shot a trooper, and, in accordance with Indian custom, was running forward to strike the body with a stick, which in the Cheyenne language is called "koos." The soldier called for help when he saw his enemy bearing down upon him, and several mounted comrades rushed to his rescue. One of these men fired at Yellow Nose at such close range that his eyes and face are still speckled with the [black] powder. The bullet missed Yellow Nose, wounding his horse in the neck. Yellow Nose was struck a heavy glancing blow across the forehead with the gunsight, blinding him for a moment and filling his eyes with blood.
This same man who had fired at him was next seen by Yellow Nose at a small mound on the ridge and on foot, with about thirty men gathered around him. He was bareheaded and armed only with a pistol. As the Indians bore down upon this group, a number of the soldiers apparently lost courage and ran to lower ground, close to the base of the mound. The officer shouted loudly to the men and drew nearer to them when he found that they did not hear him or were unwilling to obey him.
The appearance of this man was so striking and gallant that Yellow Nose decided that to kill him would be a feat of more than ordinary prowess. Yellow Nose was armed only with an old cavalry saber, having lost his gun. This saber had belonged to a boyhood friend, a Shoshone, at whose death his mother had given the saber to Yellow Nose. The battle had gone against the soldiers so heavily at this point that the officer stood finally alone. With saber drawn, Yellow Nose rode headlong at his enemy, prepared to cut him down at a stroke.
Already wounded, and trembling with fright, Yellow Nose's pony bolted when the officer fired at close range with a small pistol, but missed both man and horse. Getting his pony in hand again, Yellow Nose charged a second time, and again the officer fired and the pony sprang aside and beyond him. Determined to get within striking distance, Yellow Nose gathered himself for a third onslaught. As he drew near, the pistol was not fired-it was empty. He came squarely upon the officer, who bent his knees as it to ward off the blow of the uplifted saber. Yellow Nose struck him with terrible violence on the back of the head and the man sunk to the ground in a heap.

[mac]

Forget the killed Custer bit; but the fact is he was in the right place at the time.

Adding his story to these

From Hardorff Cheyenne Memories of the Custer Fight.

White Shield p53
Mentions the soldier’s horses got loose after Yellow Nose got the flag.
Two Moons p66
the ridge where Yellow Nose made his charges was BRE and it was Company F which lost their horses as they were being driven along the ridge towards the Gray Horse company
 

I am happy to go with the picture being a summary of the action at Ford D and the soldiers shown have lost their horses and fleeing.

The Warriors shown riding away are heading back to Greasy Grass where they will follow Lame White Man into the attack on FF ridge.

Cheers