Where Custer took 1st view of the village per Benteen (3411)

[herosrest]

The 'Abstract of the official record of proceedings of the Reno Court of Inquiry' was published in 1954, attributed to author Marcus A. Reno, prefaced by W.A. Graham who was retired. 

I quote from Graham's preface, 'After the foregoing was in type, a battlefield map, drawn and annotated by Capt. F.W. Benteen shortly after the battle, was discovered, together with other papers as yet unclassified, in an old trunk, for many years hidden away in an outbuilding on the Benteen estate. This map antedates Maguire's map by many months; and by courtesy of Anita Benteen Mitchell, grand-daughter of Benteen of the Old Seventh, it is reproduced as the back end-paper of this volume. Its importance as an original and authentic item of Custeriana cannot be overstated; and though it should go far to settle some disputes, it will probably be the cause of others. Certainly it will be closely scanned by students of the 1876 campaign. Source

At 'G' on his map, Benteen identifies 'The ******** from which Custer got his 1st view of the village'.

C on the map indicates Reno's line of defence.

Link to the MAP

On 25th June, 1876, Trumpeter Martin, perhaps one hour or less after being on that terrain with Custer, advised Benteen where he (Martin) and Custer first saw the village. Benteen then included the information to his map and letter dated July 4th, 1876. 3411 is 'G'. Benteen's 'G' and it should be refred to as 'G' of Benteen's 'G' or Custer's Last Look, as the Crow's called it.

[herosrest]

Discussion.

This data offers a confusion which students of the battle should reason through in considering timing the parallel advance of Custer and Reno's commands in exiting Sundance Creek to join battle.

There is further first hand data from a participant which places the Custer's observation point nearer the ascent onto the 'bluffs'. This information is in Curtis, given by the scout Curley who like Martin, was close to Custer. Curley later left further data with Walter M. Camp.

The Vol.3. The North American Indian. I link to Curtis's MAP which indicates at '2' where Custer was seen by men of Reno's command and waved salutation. The relevant accompanying account .

The information given to Walter M. Camp by Curley is shown on this MAP

So, did Custer make only one observation from the bluffs, two or three?

From the first, or only observation, he returned to the five companies and briefed that they would go down, make a crossing, and capture the village.

My own feeling is that Custer would take a second observation as the command went forward down off the hill and then "Column left" and whole command passed down ravine toward dry creek.

Martini stated that the entire column marched down Medicine Tail Coulee to within 600 yards of the river when it halted and he was despatched to find Benteen. That isn't particularly helpful for five fords theorists but it will I hope keep consideration within realistic bounds and solve actual problems rather than riding them down in huge clouds of dusty. This problem was looked at in the primary edition of 'The Sioux Wars' and adequately and properly surmised. The second edition dealt with the issues lest robustly and was a step backwards in avoiding the problems with split wing theories.

I'm perfectly happy to outline these, if you wish. They can then be addressed. That fifteen men shot off rounds at the Luce finds does not mean that five companies rode over that terrain or deployed along it where they cannot be seen from the valley. The cartridge finds are in defilade and or blocked by the bluffs from observers to the west. If movement along this axis was being disguised then fair enough but no approach to fords below Custer's hill was ever detected by the hostile population in the valley camps. This is because, it also could not be seen. There is no view through the ridge or through the timber masking the lower fords. Disguised approach...... fine. The command was detected by hostiles in the camp who were looking across the river.

[quincannon]

HR: You last paragraph intrigues me. Please follow the new map thread Ian posted yesterday as it deals with the same hypothesis of the skirmish along the L-N-C area, and join in or post you comments here. Both will be read. I think both of us may be on to something, and I don't believe our thoughts on the matter are that far apart.

[johnson1941]

Let's call it what Herendeen and Martin and Reno called/referred to it - Weir Hill.

It is just to the left of Sharpshooter's Ridge - Weir Hill. Left of "3500" on Marshall 1891 - a 3500' high point right at the bluff. (Martin & De Rudio describe it).


Herendeen
A. I know that country and from the point we called Weir’s Hill, there is a sort of swale runs down and it is nice traveling to the creek that runs in there.

De Rudio
Q. Where was that?
A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. De Wolf was killed.

Martin
Q. Could you see the river from that place out there?
A. No Sir the river was right at the foot of the bluff. we could see the village.
...
Q. That place from which you saw the village, dogs, children, and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there.
Q. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill?
A. No sir.

Reno
Q. Do you remember about a guidon being placed at a point termed Captain Weir’s hill?
A. It was done.


WMC...

"From this hill, {Weir Hill}, can only see the Hunkpapa & Black feet lodges”

*“1700ft from Reno’s retreat up”, {along with various bearings SEEMS to put it near to the left of Sharpshooter’s Hill}.

*"From Weir's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest"

*"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe"

*"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point"

*"Distance Weir Hill to 1st Edgerly Peak is 2500ft"

*"from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield"
...
*"Bearings July 28.
N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W.
*To Edgerly Peak N 58 W.
*To Weir's hill N 68 W.
*To DeWolf marker N 64 W.

"Sharpshooters hill is 1280 feet long and the course is N 44 W."


Camp with martin: "Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it...Hunk and Blackfoot villages...W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village."

Martin jives very well with this coming and going, and returning w/benteen. As does Kanipe. And Benteen's G. And Curley.

Although how 2 places that are 'directly NW' from each other may be 15 degrees apart from another point "directly NW" from 1 of them has got me...as bad as benteen placing Martin 600yds from the ford.
*"From Weir's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest"

*"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe"

*"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point"

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[johnson1941]

All seeing and waving done just north of Reno Corral - i.e. Weir's Hill...adjacent to SSR but on the bluffs…


Hairy Moccasin

"Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting."


Goes Ahead

"Custer rode to the edge of the high bank and looked over to the place where Reno's men were, as though planning the next move. When they had arrived at about the point where Lieutenant Hodgson's headstone was placed later, the three Crow scouts saw the soldiers under Reno dismounting in front of the Dakota camp and thought that the enemy were "too many." Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas, on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer's command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run"


De Rudio and Martin (and Benteen) we already visited and they agree....both showed Benteen the spot ("G").

"General Custer, Lieut . Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the
bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were Cheering...pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was
behind the bluff"

"I think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards {from Reno corral}. It was a higher point but lower down on the river."

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