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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 4, 2018 0:31:33 GMT
Being a "Baltimore Boy" I love the National Anthem more than many, it is my favorite British drinking song. Everybody should know about Ft. McHenry, but few know about the British landing of infantry east of Baltimore, near Essex/ Middle River or the firing on a couple of Eastern Shore towns. The Town the Fooled the British, St. Michaels is known as “the town that fooled the British” due to the clever action of early settlers. During the early morning hours of August 10th, 1813, British barges off the coast of St. Michaels planned an attack on the town and a harbor fort. The people of St. Michaels got word of the impending attack and hoisted lanterns high up onto the masts of their sailboats and into the tops of trees. The high lights caused the attacking British to overshoot the town. The ruse worked and only one house in St. Michaels was hit by cannon fire. That house still stands today as a private residence and is known as the “Cannonball House.” The cannon ball fell through the top of the roof and rolled down the stairs.
The Cannonball House is located on Mulberry Street, adjacent to St. Mary’s Square.
Beth, thanks for setting this up. we recently had a drive by poster who is doing work on the battle of New Orleans for his Students. I hope he drops back in, Ian's great, great, etc., ancestors, and King George did not learn their lesson the first time. However, we prompted this war. Many also don't know that our president fled the Capital.
Regards, Tom
PS, It is good to see you back Beth, I have been watching the main page.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 4, 2018 13:44:24 GMT
Well Tom, your president may have fled but we lost our only prime minister to assassination that year.
Our army did well that year with wins against the French at Salamanca and the Americans at Queenston Heights and capturing Fort Detroit.
But I guess that the ordinary working English man would be more worried about feeding his family then these things as the working class were still living below the poverty line with the price of basic food like bread being at a record high. It was also the year of the Luddites who kicked off after machines replaced them as weavers, some of these were shot dead, some were hanged but the majority where sent to AUSTRALIA!
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Post by quincannon on Dec 4, 2018 16:46:38 GMT
From a strategic standpoint I cannot comprehend why the British even bothered fighting this war. They could not win. The British Army was faced with the very same situation that confronted them in the American Revolution. They could dominate the sea coast with the Royal Navy, but on land their long supply lines relegated them to not being able to penetrate the American heartland, and restricted them to only being able to operate fifty, to no more than a hundred, miles from shore, or more accurately from a major port.
The British were very successful in raiding along the coast lines, until, as Tom points out, the Battles of North Point (near Baltimore) and also New Orleans, were both counters to such operations.
Incursions from Canada were also problematic for them, from a logistical standpoint. They could operate on the Great Lakes, but moving inland presented insurmountable, for that day, logistical problems they had no means to overcome.
There is not much to see at North Point, save a roadside marker, but Fort McHenry is completely preserved, and Patterson Park, a rather large urban park, contains what remains of the final defensive ring around Baltimore. If one stands on the battlements at McHenry, you can visualize just how close the Royal Navy bombardment fleet was, by looking out over the harbor to the Francis Scott Key Bridge which is about where the RN battle line was.
For further reading on the war I would suggest Lord's "At Dawn's Early Light" which covers Bladensburg to New Orleans fairly completely, and Toll's "Six Frigates" covering the political build up to the war, and gives extensive coverage of the war at sea. Teddy Roosevelt's two volume study of the U S Navy in the War of 1812 is the historical gold standard, but I have never been able to find a copy of it.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 4, 2018 17:03:24 GMT
Is this one of the books?
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Post by quincannon on Dec 4, 2018 17:08:24 GMT
Yes, but that appears to be an abridged edition.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 4, 2018 17:10:35 GMT
Is it over two volumes? May they combined the two together and then shorten it to for the abridged version.
Here is volume 2
For some reason part 1 is only available on Kindle
I suppose it depends how flushed you are
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Post by ray on Dec 14, 2018 2:11:57 GMT
Beth, thanks for setting this up. we recently had a drive by poster who is doing work on the battle of New Orleans for his Students. I hope he drops back in, Ian's great, great, etc., ancestors, and King George did not learn their lesson the first time.
Hi Tom,
As the "drive-by poster" whom you noted, I asked Beth to set up the thread. However, from reading QC's "strategic opinion" expressed below about this war I suspect that all questions ever raised (or even contemplated) have already been answered; nothing to see here, move right along. After all, it's not like the British understood that control of New Orleans essentially controlled the American heartland... and their stated backchannel desire to "set the table" for ongoing negotiation (post-Ghent) probably had nothing to do with anything, either.
Okay, I know my place. I'm off to study a real battle, the Battle of Aschaffenburg.
I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 14, 2018 11:56:13 GMT
I don't know Ray, could the Brits have been pissed at our tampering (coveting) Canada? Could they have been in collusion with their then allies the Spanish, still ensconced in Florida and Texas? I think there could be many questions in play. Vancouver, the Fur trade, so many questions, some I can't even think of such as what did the French have the right to sell us?
Drive by poster was not a disparaging comment, I knew you were busy and was not sure if or when we would hear from you again.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Dec 14, 2018 16:18:22 GMT
I am truly disappointed about two things Tom.
I was hoping to have a spirited discussion about New Orleans. which I understand Ray knows quite a bit about. Secondly, it is most distressing to be thought of as an uneducated, ill informed, rag picking, moonshine running clodhopper, who has never worn shoes, and whose bib overalls perpetually look like I have crapped my pants, by not realizing that New Orleans controls the Mississippi and the Mississippi controls the only real access to the Louisiana Purchase lands.
I still say is was a raid that could not be sustained in the long term due to 1) Logistics, and 2) The nature of the terrain there in that part of Louisiana, which makes it very hard for the city to be held by attacks from landward. The strategic concept of putting the stopper in the bottle, as you alluded to Ray, may have been thought of, or even attempted, but can't work for the long haul. If you are not fighting for a decisive outcome in the long haul, why fight?
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 14, 2018 20:48:25 GMT
Ray, if you are keen on leaning about Aschaffenburg, then this may be of interest to you. Enjoy your Christmas and hope to see you in the new year.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 15, 2018 11:52:48 GMT
Ian, Thank you for that, we see many of the War College pieces, most on these boards about t GAC and the LBH. That was excellent, I wonder if he went on to get his bird.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2018 13:17:02 GMT
Your welcome Tom; as the doc says, Aschaffenburg was a harder battle then the US Army thought it would be. It try's to examine why it took ten days for mobile and well support US forces to defeat a defense force made up of German militia and this was in the last few weeks of the war.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 15, 2018 14:27:41 GMT
I guess we should pick which of the two battles! By the way the first was difficult as well.
The battle of Aschaffenburg (14 July 1866) saw the Prussians gain a foothold on the Main River east of Frankfurt and made it more difficult for the two Federal forces opposing them to join up. At the start of the war the Prussians faced two opponents in south-western Germany, the Federal 8th Corps at Frankfurt and the Bavarian Army at Bamberg. Further north was the Hanoverian Army. If these three forces had been able to unite, then the Prussian Army of the Main would have been rather badly outnumbered, but this never happened. While Prince Alexander of Hesse, commander of the 8th Corps, and Prince Charles of Bavaria, commander of the Bavarian Army, argued about the right way to react, the Prussians, under General Falckenstein, concentrated against the Hanoverians. Although the Hanoverians did win a battle at Langensalza (27 June 1866), they were soon surrounded and surrendered on 29 June.
This meant that the southern Allies' plan to unite around Hersfeld, north of the Hohn Rhön Mountains, was no longer valid. Prince Charles attempted to convince Prince Alexander that their two corps should unite further south, but Prince Alexander insisted on continuing to move north. The two commanders agreed to unite at Fulda, to the north-west of the mountains. However this plan failed to take into account the Prussians, and as the Bavarians attempted to move around the northern end of the mountains they ran into a Prussian force at Dermbach. On the following day the Prussians won two separate engagements near the town (battle of Dermbach, 4 July 1866). The concentration at Fulda was cancelled and the Allies began to retreat back towards their starting points. The Bavarians hoped to defend the line of the River Saale, on the south-eastern side of the mountains, but once again they underestimated the Prussians. The Bavarians expected to be attacked from the north on 11 July at the soonest, but the Prussians crossed the mountains and hit them from the west on 10 July (battles of Kissingen and Hammelburg). The Bavarians retreated east and south in some confusion, but they were saved from further defeats by events elsewhere. It was clear that peace negotiations would soon begin in Austria, and the Prussian leadership wanted to make sure that the area north of the River Main was in their hands when the negotiations ended. Late on 11 July Falckenstein was ordered to turn west, and occupy Frankfurt and the surrounding areas.
This meant that the Prussians would need to cross the Spessart, a range of low wooded mountains south of the Hohn Rhön. The Prussians advanced in two columns. To the south Goeben's and Manteuffel's Divisions advanced west from Lohr to Aschaffenburg. Both places were located on the Main, which swings south in a large loop to pass the Spessart. To the north Beyer's Division followed a road that emerged from the mountains at Hanau, to the north-west of Aschaffenburg.
In theory this left Goeben's Division exposed to an attack by the larger Federal 8th Corps, but Prince Alexander missed his chance. The Bavarian defeats on the Saale helped convince the Prince that union with the Bavarians was more important than defending Frankfurt, and so he prepared to move around the southern end of the Spessart to join up with his allies somewhere near Würzburg. In order to cover this movement the Hessian Brigade was ordered to advance along the road from Aschaffenburg to Lohr, to watch for any Prussian advance. Instead the Hessians became involved in a significant fight at Laufach (13 July 1866), and suffered a heavy defeat. That evening Prince Alexander received fresh orders. The move south-east from Aschaffenburg was cancelled. Instead he was to move south through the Odenwald, south/ south-east of Frankfurt. He was then to turn east to reach Miltenberg on the Main, and then continue east to join up with the Bavarians around Uffenheim, south-east of Würzburg.
Aschaffenburg was defended by the 4th (Combined) Division, made up of one Austrian and one Nassau brigade, commanded by Field Marshal Neipperg. He had some limited support from General Perglas's 3rd Division (Hesse-Darmstadt), but that division had suffered heavy losses at Laufach. Before the fighting began, troops from the Combined Division replaced the Hessians at Goldbach, two miles east of Aschaffenburg.
General Goeben's division resumed its march at around 7.30am on 14 July, again with Wrangel's Brigade in the lead.
In 1866 Aschaffenburg was a small town on the east bank of a curve in the Main, which flowed north-east towards the town, then curved around to flow west away from it towards Frankfurt. A railway ran across the Spessart to Aschaffenburg, following the same valley as the Prussian advance. Goeben advanced with Kummer's Brigade on the left, following the line of the railway, and Kummer's Brigade on the right, on the road for most of the route, although just outside the town the road crossed the railway. Tresckow's cavalry brigade followed close behind.
As the Prussian troops advanced they found Federal troops at Hösbach, and formed up ready for a battle. Instead of attacking, the Federal troops retreated from Hösbach, and then from Goldbach, falling back all the way to Aschaffenburg.
As the Prussians approached the town they came under fire from a well positioned Austrian artillery battery. The Prussian guns couldn't get into a good position for counter battery fire, and the advance was held up for some time. The deadlock was broken when three battalions from the 15th Prussian Regiment captured Damm, just to the north of the town, and captured a nearby hill (topped with a tower surrounded by a wall). The Austrian artillery was now within rifle range, and was forced to retreat.
On the Prussian left the 13th Regiment captured a pheasantry and inflicted heavy casualties on the retreating Austrians. Kummer's 53rd Regiment then pushed into the outskirts of the town, and soon captured the only bridge over the Main. 200 Austrian prisoners were captured by the same troops as they attempted to cross the river by boat.
On the other flank Perglas's battered division withdrew, and retreated towards Seiligenstadt (north-west down the Maine). This forced Neipperg to order a full retreat. Many of his troops were trapped within the town. In addition the Italian troops of the Wernhardt Regiment, who had fought well earlier in the day, now surrendered in large numbers.
News of Goeben's success soon reached the Württemberg Brigade, which had been marching towards the town. The advance was cancelled and the brigade withdrew from danger.
As was so often the case during this campaign, the Federals suffered much higher casualties than the Prussians lost 27 dead, 144 wounded and 9 missing, a total of 180 casualties. The Federals lost 226 dead, 484 wounded and 1,759 prisoners, a total of 2,469 casualties.
The defeat at Aschaffenburg meant that the original route close to the Main was no longer safe. Prince Alexander had to send his troops further west, crossing the Odenwald before they could turn east to begin the journey towards Würzburg. They began to move south on 15 July and were close to Miltenberg by the end of 16 July. After a rest day on 17 July the move east began, and by the end of 22 July the 8th Corps had taken up a new position along the River Tauber, south of the big loop where the Main flows around the Spessart.
This move left Frankfurt undefended and the city fell to the Prussians on 16 July. After a brief pause, in which Falckenstein was replaced by Manteuffel, the Prussians advanced south-east along the Main. They caught up with the slow moving 8th Corps close to the River Tauber, south of the Main. Once again the Allies had underestimated their opponents, and were planning to go back onto the offensive. Once again Prince Alexander's stubbornness meant that the best plan, to unite on the Tauber and advance along the Main, had to be abandoned. Instead the allies agreed to move north, then cross the Spessart themselves to attack the Prussians around Frankfurt. On 23 July the Bavarians began to move north-west from Würzburg towards Lohr on the Main, but on the same day the Prussians defeated the Federal outposts west of the Tauber (combat of Hundsheim). Prince Alexander withdrew to the river, but his attempts to defend it ended in failure (battle of Tauberbischofsheim, 24 July 1866). This defeat forced Prince Charles to abandon the move north, and once again the Allies began to move towards each other. All this meant was that the Prussians were able to defeat both of them on the same day. On 25 July the Bavarians were defeated at Helmstadt while the 8th Corps was defeated further to the south-east, at Gerchsheim. The defeated Allies began to retreat back towards the Main around Würzburg, suffering another defeat at Rossbrun on the way (26 July 1866). By now it was clear that the war was coming to an end. News reached both commanders that a formal truce was to come into effect on 2 August. In the meantime a temporary ceasefire was agreed. On 1 August Manteuffel threatened to bombard Würzburg unless the city surrendered, and on 2 August, just before the formal truce came into effect, the Prussians marched into the city.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 15, 2018 15:02:34 GMT
It is obvious that I clipped the above.
Let's get back to the war of 1812. We were a young nation just trying out our wings on the world stage and the Brits were trying to keep those wings trimmed. We had some success with the Barbary Pirates, the Brits would sometimes raid our ships(and take sailors), we were making demonstrations against Canada along the Great Lakes, we were giving the Spanish a fit in North Florida and the Brits were their allies at the time.
The majority of the British attacks against us were hit and run affairs, as has been pointed out the logistics were against them.
We made the Louisiana Purchase which we probably could have just taken, all we did was help to fill Napoleon's war chest. That did not endear us to the Brits either. Those lands were just a claim, after all and the French could never have held them. It was the correct thing to do legally but we took what we wanted from the Spanish and obviously the Indians.
There is much background music to this war.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 15, 2018 19:15:36 GMT
I don't know much about this period, well maybe stuff about Rogers Rangers and Hawk Eye and Tinachunks, but would your sailors been previously in the RN and trained by the Great British?
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