dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 9, 2018 21:33:17 GMT
On November 10, 1775, the United States Marine Corps was established by the Second Continental Congress. I wish to extend my congratulations and thanks to all who have earned the title of United States Marine, both living and those who have passed, for their sacrifice and dedication to this nation! Semper fidelis is their motto and creed.
Happy Birthday Leathernecks!
Regards David
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 9, 2018 22:05:11 GMT
Sadly two days after a whack job murdered 12 and it had mentioned he was a Marine, as if that was part of the story.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 10, 2018 11:39:22 GMT
I don't know if it is true or not but I am sure that whack job was known to have mental health problems, so why was he allowed to have weapons? I know the gun laws are a touchy subject over in the USA and I will not interfere at all with all your rights as Americans, but surly the government could pass a bill stating that any person who has known mental health problems should hand in their gun license and their weapons until a doctor deems them mentally fit enough and they should be vetted again before being allowed to have their license back.
Beware of the main three components;
1/ a person trained to kill 2/ mental health problems
3/ owning a weapon or weapons
All three together are a recipe for disaster .
Dave me auld mate, I am sorry that this may have ruined you thread, I will gladly delete it if you want me to and apologize to any marines who feel like I should have posted this elsewhere like our private founders mess room.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 10, 2018 17:28:30 GMT
The United States Marines are the finest combined arms force that has ever existed on planet earth, bar none. Note what I said. It is the total combined arms aspect of their organization that makes them so powerful, and thusly the best.
To achieve that status you must train Marines or any other force to instantly kill any opposition without contemporary reflection. That training, if effective, changes a person forever. A man going into combat never, and I mean never, comes out the other end whole in mind, body, or spirit. Some learn to adapt back into civilized society, and present the facade of normalcy, while others bear these crippling scars for the rest of their lives. These manifest themselves in many ways, from those who refuse to talk about what they have experienced, or if they do talk will only relate the pleasant and keep the rest hidden in the deepest recesses of the closet of the mind, to those who do nothing but talk to justify their actions.
I have related two stories here at least once, but for illustrative purposes I will again. One deals with Charles McDonald, familiar to Ian for writing "Company Commander". The only thing he ever said to me, when I ask him about his experience in the Bulge, was to state "It was cold". Another is from a supply sergeant of mine, who went from Normandy to VE Day in Europe, in an Infantry regiment. The only story he would ever tell is that he literally bumped into Linda Darnell after a USO show. All the rest these men kept private, in a one on one conversation.
This man who killed all these people was the product of a system that has no way of controlling their actions after the war for them is over. In a way their personal war has just begun. Give them help might be what you say. Restrict them as Ian suggests. Both, or many more may very well be the right thing to do. The problem is that these feelings may be dormant for an extended period of time. There may be no outward sign that they cannot mentally cope with their experiences. The bottom line though is that society does not have the capacity to detect and apply cure in all cases, and these unfortunate incidents will continue as long as men wage war. When you turn the tiger you have created loose, it is very difficult to get them back in the cage.
For those who have never experienced war the view is much like we see in the war time films, where the pilot smiles a whoops with glee when he shoots down a Japanese plane. Ironically "God Is My Copilot" is the poster child for this. Reality is that the soldier, eventually comes away with the feeling of - What have I done? - Can I be redeemed in the eyes of God and man? and similar feelings, and those are the ones we deem normal. Others look at killing beyond redemption as the new normal in their lives. These are the depths of where your killers who received their first exposure in war come from, and they may live next door, as it was with me a few years ago.
If you want to know the problem and stop it ----- STOP WAR.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Nov 10, 2018 21:01:10 GMT
On November 10, 1775, the United States Marine Corps was established by the Second Continental Congress. I wish to extend my congratulations and thanks to all who have earned the title of United States Marine, both living and those who have passed, for their sacrifice and dedication to this nation! Semper fidelis is their motto and creed. Happy Birthday Leathernecks! Regards David Dave, Thank you very much. Happy birthday to Uncle Ernie, may he rest in peace. Semper Fi Dave
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Nov 10, 2018 21:03:00 GMT
The United States Marines are the finest combined arms force that has ever existed on planet earth, bar none. Note what I said. It is the total combined arms aspect of their organization that makes them so powerful, and thusly the best. To achieve that status you must train Marines or any other force to instantly kill any opposition without contemporary reflection. That training, if effective, changes a person forever. A man going into combat never, and I mean never, comes out the other end whole in mind, body, or spirit. Some learn to adapt back into civilized society, and present the facade of normalcy, while others bear these crippling scars for the rest of their lives. These manifest themselves in many ways, from those who refuse to talk about what they have experienced, or if they do talk will only relate the pleasant and keep the rest hidden in the deepest recesses of the closet of the mind, to those who do nothing but talk to justify their actions. I have related two stories here at least once, but for illustrative purposes I will again. One deals with Charles McDonald, familiar to Ian for writing "Company Commander". The only thing he ever said to me, when I ask him about his experience in the Bulge, was to state "It was cold". Another is from a supply sergeant of mine, who went from Normandy to VE Day in Europe, in an Infantry regiment. The only story he would ever tell is that he literally bumped into Linda Darnell after a USO show. All the rest these men kept private, in a one on one conversation. This man who killed all these people was the product of a system that has no way of controlling their actions after the war for them is over. In a way their personal war has just begun. Give them help might be what you say. Restrict them as Ian suggests. Both, or many more may very well be the right thing to do. The problem is that these feelings may be dormant for an extended period of time. There may be no outward sign that they cannot mentally cope with their experiences. The bottom line though is that society does not have the capacity to detect and apply cure in all cases, and these unfortunate incidents will continue as long as men wage war. When you turn the tiger you have created loose, it is very difficult to get them back in the cage. For those who have never experienced war the view is much like we see in the war time films, where the pilot smiles a whoops with glee when he shoots down a Japanese plane. Ironically "God Is My Copilot" is the poster child for this. Reality is that the soldier, eventually comes away with the feeling of - What have I done? - Can I be redeemed in the eyes of God and man? and similar feelings, and those are the ones we deem normal. Others look at killing beyond redemption as the new normal in their lives. These are the depths of where your killers who received their first exposure in war come from, and they may live next door, as it was with me a few years ago. If you want to know the problem and stop it ----- STOP WAR. Chuck, One of the finest posts I have ever seen, on this or any board. Well Done Semper Fi Dan
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 11, 2018 12:35:40 GMT
I have always been fascinated on how Marines from both Britain and the USA are so highly regarded as fighting troops. You would think that the Navy would need help off the army to train and develop such a force, but by all standards the marines seem to be more resolute and are usually given the tough jobs. I know that the airborne/paratroops are another class act and the training for both the marines and the paras, is way tougher then the regular army. A lot of recruits for these units come from the army, so you would think that they would be prepared, but many fail the training needed and go back to the foot sloggers.
Armistice day today, 11-11, a day to remember the fallen who gave their today for our tomorrow.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 11, 2018 14:17:23 GMT
It was also my fathers birthday, he passed in 2004. So, Happy Armistice Day, Happy Veterans Day, and Happy Birthday Dad.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Nov 11, 2018 15:45:52 GMT
Ian: I think you might have missed my point a little. The Marines, yours and ours draw on the same raw material as do the other services, so it is not the material that is better, in our case. It is the organizational construct.
In the USMC, they live the combined arms concept, and they are organized for combat, land, sea, and air, within their own resources. A Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU), built around an Infantry battalion, but resourced with air (fixed and rotary), a complete logistics package, engineers, plus tanks, artillery, reconnaissance, amphibious vehicles, and in some cases special operators, are totally manned by Marines, less Naval medical personnel who are assigned, not attached, to Marine units, all under one commander, a Marine.
The Marine brigade, and the Marine Expeditionary force, differ only in size in that the former is built around a Marine regiment, and the latter around a Marine division.
In short the Marines do not have to go outside their own organizational assets and beg support from anyone. Not only are they organized this way, they train and live this way, for they know that it is by combined arms that battles and wars are won.
The Army on the other hand, cannot completely support itself from within. An Army brigade when deployed, needs the equivalent of two additional brigades to sustain that one brigade in the fight. They must call on the Air Force for close air, and air supremacy support. All these present coordination problems that are not all that easy to surmount, where the Marines only talk to Marines. There is a very big difference, between talking to strangers and talking to people who share the common culture of Marines.
So, you knowing that I don't usually make most statements lightly, or readily put one service ahead of my own, what makes Marines different, here in the good old US of A is the common culture shared, the combination of arms at all levels, and having all the toys you require without asking for handouts. They are not supermen. They just know how to organize themselves better, and have a far superior manner in which the build their people, making them Marines first, then what ever else they do, as an add on to the Marine ethos.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 11, 2018 18:32:22 GMT
I think the point I was making is that when I see our two nations in conflict, you can bet our marines are in the thick of it and our paras.
Don't forget also that my Uncle was a royal marine commando and fought at Dieppe [Military Medal], Normandy and Walcheren Island.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 12, 2018 23:48:41 GMT
And the point I am trying to make is that it is the organizational construct, unique to the USMC that makes them such a formidable fighting force. The governing concept is that the USMC does not have to go outside its own organization to have all the means necessary to get in, and stay in the fight.
There is absolutely no question that any nation that has an elite force, such as Marines and Airborne troops, fill their organizations with the best human material available.
Point for you to do further research on is 3 Commando Brigade RM in the Falklands. During that action they had two battalions of the Parachute Regiment attached to the Commando Brigade. Reading closely the after action reports, as I have done, you will find that there was great difficulty caused by the little things associated with that attachment. They found it difficult to communicate between the Paras and the Commandos. They had slightly different TTP. There are other minor factors as well. Both forces, Paras and Commandos were the best that the UK had to offer, but these small things that manifest themselves when attached to one another, are stumbling blocks that cost lives and inhibit mission performance.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 13, 2018 10:02:26 GMT
I know your point Chuck, I noted in your first posts and enjoyed reading it. But where we get are lines crossed are that the points you are making are organisational and mine was the fighting men. As you know I have an interest in this through my uncle. And the way I see it is that you have the army then a step up from them is the marines and paras and finally we have the ultimate the special forces like the SAS & SBS. Going back to the points you made on the Falklands, I would agree that mistakes were made in that operation but that was to be expected when you throw together a adhoc force and transport it to the farside of the earth at a moments notice.
That operation was a feat and a half which not only surprised the Argentinians but the military world.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 13, 2018 19:02:52 GMT
Ian: To fully understand you most focus an equal amount of attention on both.
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