From the Smithonian

[deadwoodgultch]

The following is an excerpt from the Smithsonian Magazine. This bit takes place after Reno has retreated to the hill and is a compilation of NA accounts to include Two Moon. This might pertain to Steve and Chuck's discussion.

The soldiers’ crossing of the river brought a second breathing spell in the fight. Some of the Indians chased them to the top of the hill, but many others, like Black Elk, lingered to pick up guns and ammunition, to pull the clothes off dead soldiers or to catch runaway horses. Crazy Horse promptly turned back with his men toward the center of the great camp. The only Indian to offer an explanation of his abrupt withdrawal was Gall, who speculated that Crazy Horse and Crow King, a leading man of the Hunkpapa, feared a second attack on the camp from some point north. Gall said they had seen soldiers heading that way along the bluffs on the opposite bank.

The fight along the river flat—from the first sighting of soldiers riding toward the Hunkpapa camp until the last of them crossed the river and made their way to the top of the hill—had lasted about an hour. During that time, a second group of soldiers had shown itself at least three times on the eastern heights above the river. The first sighting came only a minute or two after the first group began to ride toward the Hunkpapa camp—about five minutes past 3. Ten minutes later, just before the first group formed a skirmish line, the second group was sighted across the river again, this time on the very hill where the first group would take shelter after their mad retreat across the river. At about half-past 3, the second group was seen yet again on a high point above the river not quite halfway between Reno Hill and the Cheyenne village at the northern end of the big camp. By then the first group was retreating into the timber. It is likely that the second group of soldiers got their first clear view of the long sprawl of
the Indian camp from this high bluff, later called Weir Point.

The Yanktonais White Thunder said he saw the second group make a move toward the river south of the ford by the Cheyenne camp, then turn back on reaching “a steep cut bank which they could not get down.” While the soldiers retraced their steps, White Thunder and some of his friends went east up and over the high ground to the other side, where they were soon joined by many other Indians. In effect, White Thunder said, the second group of soldiers had been surrounded even before they began to fight. where the first group of soldiers retreated across the river to the next crossing place at the northern end of the big camp was about three miles—roughly a 20-minute ride. Between the two crossings steep bluffs blocked much of the river’s eastern bank, but just beyond the Cheyenne camp was an open stretch of several hundred yards, which later was called Minneconjou Ford. It was here, Indians say, that the second group of soldiers came closest to the river and to the Indian camp. By most Indian accounts it wasn’t very close.
Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-battle-of-little-bighorn-was-won-63880188/#6jX7ssHCmYhsJEvk.99
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[mac]

Just note the end....it wasn't very close. At this area the people there, like Gall, reference Company L as "Custer" and the closest they got was... not very close.
Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac,
That's why I posted this portion up. It is an old article, took some digging out. The entire article is well done. Over the years the Smithsonian has done a good job with the LBH.

Also, from the Smithsonian: Dr. Herman J. Viola is a curator emeritus at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History. A specialist on the history of the American West, he served as director of the Museum's National Anthropological Archives in addition to organizing two major exhibitions for the Smithsonian. "Magnificent Voyagers" told the story of the United State Exploring Expedition of 1838-42, and "Seeds of Change" examined the exchange of plants, animals, and diseases between the Old and the New Worlds as a result of the Christopher Columbus voyages of discovery. Dr. Viola put together a book about the battle from the Cheyenne/Sioux perspective: "Little Bighorn Remembered: the Untold Indian Story of Custer's Last Stand." Much great background and other stuff in the book.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Just a guess. Hell everything I say about this seems to be just a guess, but this sounds like it might be an attempt to cross at Ford C, which I don't believe any of us had ever considered before.

We have talked about the conditions and properties of that ford before, but rejected it as not being a viable option, for exactly the same reasons the article mentions.

[azranger]

From Ford A to Ford B is around 3.5 miles any further ford would be closer to 5 miles. That would fit those maps that have troop movement from around 600 yards from B and moving to Deep Ravine and up to LSH. If no troops went any further down MTC than where the other companies cross and moved to Luce we have throw out Pvt. Peter Thompson, Martin, and Curley. They are the only real time witnesses of movement in MTC. Gerry made a map of Thompson's viewscape from where he believes Thompson was positioned on the river. You can not see any soldiers following Godfrey's route. Martin looks back and sees the soldiers withdrawing from where he left them which he states is 600 yards from the ford. 

Also when they describe the Cheyenne camp it is the tipis they speak of I believe. There could be a camp of warriors only near where the Cheyennes had posted guards. I think that is near where Deep Ravine runs into the river. Maybe a scout was showing them that ford?

[azranger]

Sept 21, 2018 17:50:56 GMT quincannon said:

Just a guess. Hell everything I say about this seems to be just a guess, but this sounds like it might be an attempt to cross at Ford C, which I don't believe any of us had ever considered before.

We have talked about the conditions and properties of that ford before, but rejected it as not being a viable option, for exactly the same reasons the article mentions.

I agree.

[deadwoodgultch]

I think Steve disagrees with me here. My opinion is that Ford B is where the reenactors camp and C is about a quarter mile further on near where the reenactment takes place, actually slightly further on.

Regards,
Tom

[azranger]

I think there are many Fords from Reno Creek to Willy Bend's on the LBH. Ford A originated as a letter designated  location on the McGuire map. At that location are numerous places to cross the river. Ford B is another letter designation on Exhibit 2 for the RCOI.

There are many fords between A and B on the McGuire map. Here is one I call Model A Ford due to vehicle tracks. It can be seen from the location that the banner picture was taken.

The first ford after the bluffs near MTC is what I call Ford B because someone put a B on the McGuire map near that location. Depending on previous water movement it may or not be usable. Next to the current Cavalry School Camp is the ford Tom addresses above. That ford is also use when you ride with James Real Bird. A little further down stream and across from the Real Bird bleachers is the ford used by graduating members of the Cavalry School who participate in the Real Bird pageant.  There are more and a poster who goes by blaque and is named Jose has Ford C down closer to Deep Ravine  and CR. 

The problem I see is that the RCOI exhibit notations for fords would lead one to believe it is a relationship in location because of the A,B sequence  rather than time and location.  In this case Ford A was actually used by Reno and Ford B was most likely only used by Indians.

So now we want to name fords downstream as C and D, Also we end up with fords B,B1,B2.

Regards

Steve

[yanmacca]

Sept 21, 2018 17:50:56 GMT quincannon said:

Just a guess. Hell everything I say about this seems to be just a guess, but this sounds like it might be an attempt to cross at Ford C, which I don't believe any of us had ever considered before.

I must say Chuck that I have mentioned ford C in the past, probably because I thought it was Gibbon's Ford.

If these two locations are the same, then this ford could be a possible short cut into the back door of the village. The problem is did Custer know it was there and could it be sustained as a military crossing point for a full company or even a whole battalion, as it is nowhere near the size in area to either B or D.

I think I thought of this after I saw this map. Kellogg is mentioned in the area, which could be misconstrued for Crazy Horse Ravine.

[quincannon]

The Ford C crossing points are totally unsuitable for a military river crossing. Gibbon's Ford is one of those crossing points. There are others, but they are very narrow and confining. Problem is though, considering that you may happen upon them without prior knowledge, you do not know how unsuitable they are until you try them. I do not think that any attempted crossing at any of the crossing points of Ford C should be dismissed out of hand.

[crowsnest]

Often too heavy native pressure is assumed as the reason for the fall back/retrograde. It’s just as plausible that the Crossing was unsuitable and unanticipated (quicker than expected) native pressure growing at the back door led to it too.

[johnson1941]

"From the spot where the first group of soldiers retreated across the river to the next crossing place at the northern end of the big camp was about three miles—roughly a 20-minute ride. Between the two crossings steep bluffs blocked much of the river’s eastern bank, but...

...just beyond the Cheyenne camp was an open stretch of several hundred yards, which later was called Minneconjou Ford. It was here, Indians say, that the second group of soldiers came closest to the river and to the Indian camp. By most Indian accounts it wasn’t very close.

Approaching the ford at an angle from the high ground to the southeast was a dry creek bed in a shallow ravine now known as Medicine Tail Coulee."

Pretty clear what/where the ford is. B.

Or does it stretch too far to be considered 1 ford?

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