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Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 20, 2018 1:53:38 GMT
You are correct, regarding seniority, pulled up the entire regiment. There was another captain(Hale) also above Tom but he was on detached duty and Major Tilford was above Reno, he was not present.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 20, 2018 14:56:29 GMT
As E Company breaks it's possible that some of E nearest to LSH were flushed that way, while Sturgis and most of E company were split by a native charge and flushed west towards Deep Ravine. One interpretation of the JSIT map has the whole five companies being flushed like a leaking toilet with many holes.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 20, 2018 15:02:42 GMT
If the chain of command falls to rank and order of enlistment, then the five companies in Custer's battalion would have a command structure in this order;
Lt. Col. George A. Custer (June/24/1861) Staff Capt. Myles Keogh (July/28/1866) Company I Capt. George Yates (June/12/1867) Company F Capt. Thomas Custer (December/2/1875) Company C
Now because we are now looking at LSH, we can omit Keogh as he is out of contact, so if Custer is down, then Yates would take command, but seeing by this time the shit has hit the pan in a grand way, I don't think anyone could control this unit of survivors.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 20, 2018 16:54:26 GMT
Of all the maps I have seen the JSIT map posted above makes the most sense from a tactical perspective.
The notation "wait" refers to what JSIT says was a pause of some sort, which does not make much sense to me, unless his "pause" really means that the companies were stationary, but still were engaged. Anyway, that is how I chose to interpret the meaning of the word used.
The "wait" area on this map of course refers to Cemetery Ridge, and I believe it was oversimplified for purposes of the map. My thinking tells me that this area would cover much more ground than indicated.
What I really like about it though is JSIT shows the battalion exploding for want of a better word, and is a lead in to the retrograde that followed. Note how I and L are together. The next step I believe would be for I to halt covering L, let L move through them to what became their final position. We see the same thing with C and F. In this instance F stops to cover, and it is C that moves through and beyond. Both of those moves would conform to the dragoon TTP of that day. Poor old Company E is SOL, in both losing their horses in the explosion and having no one available to give them cover.
All this leads to Ian's final line above. No one in "command" under those circumstance would be commanding anything beyond the sound of their own voice. It was mayhem at some point, a complete break down in the chain of command. Decisions would not come from battalion, and there probably was not much that company commanders could do either. Throw into the mix that some officers were probably down already. Truth is that any company that got away temporarily, probably did so by blind luck.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Sept 21, 2018 1:57:45 GMT
Agreed that the JSIT map makes the most sense, fits with the 5 companys theory, and tactically is sound since all 5 would have been involved in the attempted river crossing for the purpose of assaulting either the non-coms or the north end of the village. The wait area makes sense also as it is high ground, allowing a view of the ford D area and the hostiles, plus allows the commander (assumed to be GAC) to setup a delaying skirmish line while quickly devising a way out of the danger. All the time during the "wait", I believe the command was under fire. The word "wait" tends to indicate nothing going on, which I don't buy for a second. I can imagine the commander desperately trying to get word to the subordinate commanders to withdraw in all the noise and confusion.
Pressure and lack of time forces a hasty withdrawal from the area, as shown on the map. Two companies retreat back toward Calhoun Area, with one covering the other, two moving to LSH as that is higher ground than CR, and E company screwed because the suicide boys ran off their horses. If it appears all 5 moved at roughly the same time, that would indicate some one ordered the move, rather than it just happening as 5 independent decisions from the company commanders. Since I company would have had time to deploy along BR to cover L's move south and remain long enough to allow C company to pass by, the overall withdrawal was an ordered move, not a happenstance incident. Who was in command of the battalion at that point on CR is anybody's guess. I tend to think GAC was still alive and giving the orders and died on LSH.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Sept 21, 2018 12:12:37 GMT
As E Company breaks it's possible that some of E nearest to LSH were flushed that way, while Sturgis and most of E company were split by a native charge and flushed west towards Deep Ravine. One interpretation of the JSIT map has the whole five companies being flushed like a leaking toilet with many holes.
This a good example of a map and associated data. I don't think that is the JSIT map rather a cleaned up version and the map marker making changes. The terrain features don't change but the events depicted are time specific. Whoever made that map did not have Custer on Luce. Also the highway is labeled 212 the JSIT map was made when it was Route 8. Even so the The JSIT map events occur after the 5 companies move north of LSH.
Regards
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Sept 21, 2018 13:04:37 GMT
Mary Liberty probably cleaned up the HWY # as there is still a state route 8, US 212 has been around for a long time I think it ends up in Minn./St Paul. It was replaced by I-90.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Sept 21, 2018 15:18:35 GMT
I don't think Mary took the liberty to change the details that was given to her by JSIT.
That map appears to be a centerfold in a stapled together publication. In A Cheyenne Voice Margot Liberty has only the actual JSIT maps which have hand drawings on them.
Does anyone know the source of that centerfold map that Ian posted?
JSIT doesn't identify companies and his arrowed red line is continuous. That map identifies Deep Coulée as North MTC. There is a North MTC and Luce and NC are to the north and west of it.
The map appears to suggest all 5 companies went out BRE and returned across CR. That is close to what Donahue believes happened but he only has E, F and HQ going out BRE and returning across CR.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 22, 2018 19:31:06 GMT
Sorry Steve, it was in my files and like a total pro I never named or source the location.
Never mind, here is one of those random maps you see all the time in google images;
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Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2018 20:02:41 GMT
That is a nice quality map. I sure would love to the the others associated with it. If there is a Phase 2, then there must be at least a phase 1, and one would think perhaps 3,4,5, or more.
How does the map maker know that Custer sent Company E, down to Ford B, and how does this same mapmaker know that Smith found the ford mired and full of bogs? Was anyone there with Custer and/or Smith to tell us that. HOGWASH, DOUBLE HOGWASH, BULL SHIT POSING AS FACT. If is was so bad that it could not be used why did the Indians not seem to have a bit of trouble crossing during the battle, and herding horses across it afterwards? Custer had a pair of field glasses and anything he needed to find out about that ford could be obtained from where he was on the ridges.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 23, 2018 18:43:10 GMT
I think this is the sequence and there was only four in the gallery;
Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Sept 24, 2018 16:41:57 GMT
Ian: Did you notice that maps 2 and 3 are inconsistent with each other. Look at the route of E on Map 2, and then again on Map 3. Also look at the main body in terms of how far the map maker has them travel.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 24, 2018 20:05:44 GMT
Looking at the river course Chuck, it does seem that these two maps are not alike at all, but yes I see what you mean because on map two E and the main column look like they are riding parallel with each other and on map three it looks like E moves directly towards the main column and joins up with it.
To be honest I just searched for the other three maps and posted them up for you, I could see that you found the first map interesting so I found the rest for you. To be honest I didn't even check them out because yesterday [Sunday] was one of those days where we had everyone round for one of my famous Sunday lunches.
But you are correct and thanks for bringing that to my attention.
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Post by crowsnest on Mar 13, 2019 22:06:16 GMT
Hey guys, hope everyone’s still in good health.
I just can’t get over the Tom Custer question. I always seem to circle back to Tom. If we knew/could figure out why Tom was on LSH, or better yet retrace his steps I think we could solve this whole thing.
So in attempt for some fun. Ignoring all other events outside his view. Give me your best “guess” on Tom’s story specifically after the Lone Tipi.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 13, 2019 23:37:54 GMT
Commanding his company until wounded or KIA in the northern sector, and either dead or wounded to such an extent he could not go south with his company.
All that is a guess of course, and I have no crystal ball or wayback machine, but what I will say is that the reported location of Tom Custer's body has been the cause of more unfounded speculation by people with either no military knowledge or no imagination than any other event of the battle.
The record is clear. T. Custer was commanding his company, and all the soothsayers who must find a reason for him to be up north ignore the most common. obvious, and most probable answer. The are so entranced by romance they fail to see what is placed before them.
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