Tom Custer - is this the key piece to the mystery?

[crowsnest]

I've gladly investigated the multiple overall theories of the day.  There are good points, and holes to everything out there (more for some).  As I attempt to diagnose as much as I can from the variety of resources available one key question never seems to get anywhere, and this leaves me hung up on certain movements.

What were Tom Custer's actions after the split.  To me there are only 4 categories to put Tom in, each category significantly impacts the movements made throughout the battle in my opinion.  

Tom Custer scenarios:

1.  Common Theory- Tom Custer served as aid-de-camp for George, was detached throughout the battle from his command, and died on last stand hill, likely one of the last to do so.  Pro-Tom's body is on last stand hill, far from rest of company, Tom/George often rode off together, body found on last stand hill.  Con- Tom was in command of company at least through Martin's departure, Tom fighting record is not in dispute, unlikely to take an administrative role that day.  

2.  Tom Wounded Theory- Tom Custer is wounded, possibly the buckskin clad wounding crossing at a ford, mentioned in some accounts.  He was then in the care of surgeon until he died on Last Stand Hill.   Pro-explains detachment, and body location   Con-no other evidence to back it up. 

3.  George Wounded Theory- In this scenario George is wounded at some point, Tom is informed and races to either aid his brother, or assume overall command, Harrington is then given command of C.   Pro-explains detachment, and body location.  If you believe there was a pause this would explain the possible need for one.  Con- no other evidence to back it up.

4.  Tom Led C Company Theory-  In this scenario Tom played an active role in C Company's actions that day.  As C company collapsed he was able to return to HQ staff location on Last Stand Hill, and shortly after was killed.   Pro- explains body location, and no need to explain detachment.   Con- Native accounts of leader of C company appear to be Harrington, doesn't rule out however, that they weren't both there.  

So what team are you on?  Is there another scenario that should be considered?

Personally I struggle to accept 1 or 4, but will admit both are technically plausible and without hard evidence can't be ruled out.  2 and 3 answer a few more questions, but they also open up the door for several more, which complicates the puzzle.

[deadwoodgultch]

Great stuff, you have obviously put a great deal of thought into this. Your critical approach to this is evident. I like your 2&3 but, as you say it may be opening a can of worms, especially for the traditionalists.
Have you ever visited the battlefield? How many more members of C were found on LSH? Who were the men found at the markers leading to or away from LSH and the Keogh location? Let the games begin. Others here will bring you more.

Regards,
Tom

[crowsnest]

I believe we know of 3 C's beside Tom on last stand hill. Many of the markers between are unknown. (but not all) I don't know the raw number of C's between Calhoun and LSH. The issue I have with scenario 4 is that it puts Tom in a retreat posture while he has men, likely several on foot getting chopped down.

The number of C's on LSH bring you a variety of scenarios as well. They could be there as 1) survivors of C action like the Tom 4 scenario. Possibly still had mounts and made it back. 2) They were messengers going back and forth, but they seem to be privates, and how many messages needed sending during this phase, vs fire power. 3) They were wounded from a possible attempted crossing action that were being cared for in a hospital type setting then chopped down on the final assault.

There may be other scenarios to explain the C's on last stand hill too.

[yanmacca]

An impressive opening gambit CS, great to see you posting and adding what will turn out to be a good thread.

I think that only two C Company men were identified along with TWC on LSH.
Captain T. Custer
Private Y. Stungewitz
Private B. Wright

One of the instances of the two Custer bro's being separated was when GAC went to the Crowsnest and TWC stayed with his company back on the trail. I am not 100% sure but I recall that TWC brought forward the regiment without orders, much to the dismay of his older brother.

The question we need is did George require an aid-de-camp, would he ask for help or information off anybody?

You could say that out of the five company commanders who made up the Custer battalion, three where identified on LSH and two of these died in a different part of the field to there commands.

[crowsnest]

Having Tom and Smith on LSH certainly jumbles things up, while both could fall into injured status to explain their location there, you have to leave the door open to Smith positioning himself on one flank of E company, and Sturgis on the other (we see this possibly with I company too). As E Company breaks it's possible that some of E nearest to LSH were flushed that way, while Sturgis and most of E company were split by a native charge and flushed west towards Deep Ravine. This could explain Smith's location away from the bulk of his men in a scenario where he was not injured and out of commission early.

[yanmacca]

Where would the HQ be located at this period?
Would it still operate independently in such a hot zone?, would it latch itself to the nearest mounted company for protection?

We have discussed how LSH was the last place for survivors to gather and that these may have came from the eastern side of battle ridge. Any men who where found on the western side could have been forced over the ridge from the east or even carried there for burial due to rocky ground to the east.

So we could be looking at soldiers heading for this high point from four or more locations, giving that men from four the companies plus the HQ, where found dead on LSH could suggest such a scenario with nearly fifty bodies.

Ian.

[crowsnest]

Certainly things to ponder. A lot of it revolves around if you think the battle was fought with movement, or stationary. In a stationary set up you could see HQ occupying LSH out of necessity to attempt to have a visual on a portion of the valley, and a hospital being established on the west slope. If you feel it was a fluid/moving battle, an assumption would be that HQ was just attached to F Company. Personally I'm not sold on many "survivors" making it back to LSH as a retreat destination, I get the sense that I,L,C were too far apart from E and F to effectively connect, and that E,F get seperated by a native push.

I also don't believe the LSH markers to be an accurate depiction of actual body locations. I believe Custer was located at the crest of the hill, and the rest were located around him, with most to the north, and east, and wounded initially being brought to the west side of the hill.

But back to the point of the thread, depending on the role of Tom, many of these details might need a tweak.

[quincannon]

Don't know if you ever commanded a company, battery, or troop Crows Nest. I have, and based upon that and many years of experience, I can tell you that the last place any company commander wants to be in combat is away from the troops that commander has trained and led. They are his, and for any good company commander he feels about them like a father thinks of his children.

Godfrey tells us that Tom Custer was in command of his company in the Century Magazine article. I believe that article for two primary reasons, having nothing to do with the above. Godfrey as a company commander, would have knowledge of the regimental task organization prior to engagement on the morning of 25 June, and in the article names each of those commanders, outlines that battalion structure, and goes to the lengths of naming anyone with a special assignment. Second, Godfrey's article appeared well after the battle in January 1892, while most of the participants that survived were still alive, and he was never contradicted.

That leaves Tom Custer in command of Company C, that is only disputed by those who need to place Tom shoveling shit for his brother as a means of explanation of his presence on Last Stand Hill. Be patient with me here, for I am about to give you the cliff notes version of the five companies in the north theory contained elsewhere on this board and developed in full primarily by Founding Member Mac.

The theory disputes a two battalion theory, and so does Godfrey. Essentially the theory has five companies going north toward or reaching Ford D, being turned back to briefly occupy the twin ridges (Cemetery Ridge and Battle Ridge Extension - you must refer to your maps). The battalion is fully deployed, and within a short time, Indian pressure and numbers build to a point where these positions are untenable. Either by order, or most likely by the local decision of the individual company commanders, the battalion begins a retrograde southward. Companies L and C (perhaps in reverse order) are the first to go, reaching the positions in the south where they made their stand, are stopped in their attempt to break out, fight, and are overrun. Company I is next, and in all probability caught in the open while in transit. Companies E and F, are overrun before they can break contact.

If this scenario is correct, or anywhere near it, Tom Custer, along with Smith, may very well have been wounded during the fighting on the twin ridges, or Tom may have been killed during the process of Company C breaking contact, In either case his presence in the north while his company was found in the south can be accounted for.

There is artifact and testimonial evidence of five companies being in the north, evidence and testimony ignored by those with a vested interest in the conventional theory of the battle. So if you accept that evidence, and most here do, then the Tom Custer conundrum is not really that hard of a problem to solve.

Company commanders, with any sort of a spine, don't shovel shit or hold the horse for anyone while their company faces the elephant, even for their brother

[crowsnest]

This is the theory in my mind that has the best chance of being accurate as well.

So I'll put your vote in the Tom got wounded category.

But back to my point in the initial thread.  Tom Custer is the key piece to putting it together.  In order for the 5 company Ford D plan to work he needs to be injured in the initial phase of crossing or immediate withdrawal.  (or to a lesser extent George would need to be injured, with Tom assuming command)   My option 1 and option 4 make little sense in the 5 Company scenario.  

[quincannon]

There may be an outside chance that George was the one who got wounded, and Tom stayed with his brother until the end. I do not think that to be the case, for while there was a very strong bond between the Custer brothers, I believe Tom would have put duty first, even in these circumstances.

Most of those who hold to the conventional theory, forget that cavalry was then the only arm of mobility. All of their tactics, techniques, and procedures were based upon the retention of mobility in a fight. I see no reason why in this circumstance for them to disregard their own TTP and remain static. Cavalry is weak on defense, and its only strength is the retention of mobility, in attack, in defense, or in retrograde. As our resident tanker Colt will tell you, the track is every bit as much of a weapon as the main gun.

You ask damned good questions, and you think before you ask. Keep it up.

[crowsnest]

I've spent a lot of time reading this board before I registered. I wanted to wait until I had something to offer, and felt I could hang. I've had many preconceived notions changed.

I'm curious in a George is out of commission scenario, would it be Tom who assumed command? I'm unaware of what the process would be for that battalion. If Tom wouldn't be the guy, then we can completely (or nearly completely) eliminate that scenario.

[quincannon]

Normally command would be assumed by the senior line officer present, if available. Tom was not senior, and Ian or someone else probably has the seniority list close at hand.

That does not eliminate Tom from assuming command though. He may have been the senior officer PRESENT and CAPABLE of assuming command. That is a distinct possibility. In such an instance, his duty would require that he be present until the last element disengaged, which in turn would mean he would turn over his command (C) to Harrington and stay with the remnants of Companies E and F.

I particularly like the way you describe E and F being "blown apart" by Indian action with F(+) going one way and E(-) going another. I am assuming that your conclusion is that this happened while F was on Battle Ridge Extension, retreating to LSH, while E was on Cemetery Ridge retreating toward Deep Ravine.

Back to Tommy. There could have been several very good reasons that Tom was found on LSH, and we have explored several this morning. No one though should ever forget that Tom's primary duty lay with his company, and while I have no love for any of the Custer clan personally, thinking Tom little better that a common thug, I must both expect nothing less than and adherence to duty and respect them for it.

[deadwoodgultch]

Had Reno been there he would have been senior. Tom gave you an indication in the morning of the 25th as to how he thought of himself, he moved the command to our inquisitor's namesake, the foot of the Crowsnest. Reno was present and had not the balls to do so. Yates and Tom were close to time in grade. If need be I will look it up. Yates, I think was senior, behind Benteen, who also was not there.

Regards,
Tom

[mac]

Nice stuff CN!

It is on the board somewhere but I am at work so no time but..


Rain in the Face says he killed Tom Custer. Even said it as a death bed statement. 


Just saying  ; puts me in the 2 camp (nasty wound death!).

Cheers

[quincannon]

The only three to be concerned with Tom are Yates, Keogh, and Tom Custer. My memory leads me to believe that this is also the order of seniority. The impact of that, if true, is that Yates would have to be down, at which time command would pass to Keogh. So the only way that T. Custer assumes command is if

a. Keogh was already wounded, and wounded before Company I departs the north.

b. Keogh, as commander, decides to move out with the retrograde and orders Tom to turn over his command to Harrington, and for him (TC) to command the rear, and extract Companies E and F. It may very well be the case that all of the officers in E and F were already down.

This is all hypothetical, and I tend to believe that T. Custer's presence on LSH was due to being wounded, but stranger things have and do happen, and are certainly withing acceptable parameters of consideration.