LIBI Aerial artifact plot.

[herosrest]

At the end of the 1960's, NPS began using Dept. of Agriculture (USDA) aerial photographs for plotting their artifact finds.


A large composite of aerial maps, indicated where most of the then known artifacts found outside the one mile square battlefield were - plotted by an alphanumerical system. Source R.E. Doran,2007,p25

[azranger]

Hi HR

That picture is not on page 25 of my copy of the Doran book.Regarding the picture I  think someone placed those items on an aerial map and a lot of the items were not recorded on such a detailed map originally. The important difference is that introduced error is more likely when taken from hand drawn maps or even older topo maps. Without actual GPS coordinates for each item found and what exactly each item represents it looks interesting but for what useful purpose does it server. A long time ago Gordon Harper commented on the map. One of his comments was regarding the size of dots used to indicate artifacts.

Here is one of the reviews on Amazon:

"Dreadfully written and nearly as poorly edited, this book suffers from a myriad of problems, not the least of which is the author's lack of grounding in basic historical methodology, simple, mature, declarative writing, and an almost childish enthusiasm to blame rather than assess. While there is some value in the basic details on horsemanship, Doran confuses wearing a costume and playing soldier--reenacting--with being a historian.

Doran repeatedly refers to the 7th Cavalry as an "elan regiment" (32). I believe the word is elite. There is no such thing as the "Custer Era" (30), and while half the regiment was crucified, it certainly was not a "Calvary" regiment (30).

Throughout the book, Doran makes a generous use of exclamation points (never a good sign) to illustrate his surprise and ire at even the most miniscule points, such as the height and weight requirements for would-be cavalrymen: ""small men and not weigh too much!" (30).

Read, suffer, and use with caution."

Regards

AZ Ranger

[herosrest]

The image is a book sized reproduction and therefore does not offer the precision of NPS's master document. That said, it provides an impression of relic finds known to the NPS during what Doran referred to as 'Greene's tenure'. I am going to attempt to overlay it with Freeman's sketch of his recon of the battlefield. 

The book is delightfully chaotic and easily knit-picked as the reviewer delighted in doing but I will state that it is a relaxing and unassuming romp through the battle which is unproofed with poor syntax and obviously a labour of love. It is an entertaining read and I am thoroughly enjoying a third perusal and examination of it. 


There are people who need a bunch of cartridges found at 'x' to have had a relationship with 'y', which involves immense and risky conclusions with events which will never unravel. In 1926, John Stands in Timber watched the 7th Cavalry march onto the riverside flank of Last Stand Hill and Battle Ridge from the area of the D Fords and National Cemetery and today this is exactly what modern theory is developing. It happened in 1926 and not 1876. Will that prevent the theory - no. Should it prevent the theory. No. Play on. Doran offered some very interesting theory and his maps and data are more than worthwhile.  

[azranger]

I have Horsemanship at the Little Big Horn by Robert E Doran my page 25 does not match and my book is all black and white.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[azranger]

Jul 27, 2018 18:36:09 GMT herosrest said:

The image is a book sized reproduction and therefore does not offer the precision of NPS's master document. That said, it provides an impression of relic finds known to the NPS during what Doran referred to as 'Greene's tenure'. I am going to attempt to overlay it with Freeman's sketch of his recon of the battlefield. 

The book is delightfully chaotic and easily knit-picked as the reviewer delighted in doing but I will state that it is a relaxing and unassuming romp through the battle which is unproofed with poor syntax and obviously a labour of love. It is an entertaining read and I am thoroughly enjoying a third perusal and examination of it. 


There are people who need a bunch of cartridges found at 'x' to have had a relationship with 'y', which involves immense and risky conclusions with events which will never unravel. In 1926, John Stands in Timber watched the 7th Cavalry march onto the riverside flank of Last Stand Hill and Battle Ridge from the area of the D Fords and National Cemetery and today this is exactly what modern theory is developing. It happened in 1926 and not 1876. Will that prevent the theory - no. Should it prevent the theory. No. Play on. Doran offered some very interesting theory and his maps and data are more than worthwhile.  

The x and y cartridge case matches are in Doug Scott's book. How would JSIT have planted both Indians and cavalry cases on BRE and the CA.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[herosrest]

Jul 28, 2018 18:45:42 GMT azranger said:

Jul 27, 2018 18:36:09 GMT herosrest said:

The image is a book sized reproduction and therefore does not offer the precision of NPS's master document. That said, it provides an impression of relic finds known to the NPS during what Doran referred to as 'Greene's tenure'. I am going to attempt to overlay it with Freeman's sketch of his recon of the battlefield. 

The book is delightfully chaotic and easily knit-picked as the reviewer delighted in doing but I will state that it is a relaxing and unassuming romp through the battle which is unproofed with poor syntax and obviously a labour of love. It is an entertaining read and I am thoroughly enjoying a third perusal and examination of it. 


There are people who need a bunch of cartridges found at 'x' to have had a relationship with 'y', which involves immense and risky conclusions with events which will never unravel. In 1926, John Stands in Timber watched the 7th Cavalry march onto the riverside flank of Last Stand Hill and Battle Ridge from the area of the D Fords and National Cemetery and today this is exactly what modern theory is developing. It happened in 1926 and not 1876. Will that prevent the theory - no. Should it prevent the theory. No. Play on. Doran offered some very interesting theory and his maps and data are more than worthwhile.  

The x and y cartridge case matches are in Doug Scott's book. How would JSIT have planted both Indians and cavalry cases on BRE and the CA.

Regards

AZ Ranger

The interesting aspect of this matter is Doran informing us of the existance of an indexed catalogue of NPS artifact data located upon an NPS map indicating locations of the finds. This is a composite of 24 x 24 inch aerial maps which one might hope - still exists. An interesting aspect of the information for me is the obvious fighting locations on the bluffs of Greasy Grass Ridge, above the Big Beaver crossing place. He crossed the river and went up onto GGR before moving down river and onto Battle Ridge to its east in my interpretation of Blummer's interpretation of the 1928 field trip, amended by BB's own information on his sketch map.

It may be that those 800-1,000 cartridges did exist and are a part of John Stands in Timber's collection in Chicago. We will never know until it is indexed and researched.

[herosrest]

A confirmation of Doran's information about artifact data being plotted to a composite of aerial views of the battlefield terrain by NPS.

[deadwoodgultch]

As I am sure you are aware that Kellogg's marker was moved from below near the old road, in the flats, there are pictures. Six markers were moved from the site of the information center/museum. Markers were at the trading post and one beyond across US HWY 212. Let's face it many are in spurious locations. I am also sure brass was not fully policed after early reenactments.

Regards,
Tom

[herosrest]

OK.

The six markers at the the Old Stone House is a problem area for me because they were there only unrelated to 1876. This is a topic on another board with some noted contributors - Advance party and new markers Advanced party - no problem. Six markers - no problem. Six markers related to 1876 and placed by Sweet in 1890, and maintained  in any or no fashion by Superintendents - no way. I have heard before of photographs showing Kellogg's marker locations and would love to see them. I am guessing this is related to Sandy Barnard I don't know.

Getting back to the 'William A. Harris'  LIBI Map artifact map, there is interesting information about Keogh fight relics. The map plots the inventory of relics then recovered up to 1970, perhaps. I believe they were removed to the collection and are now in Arizona and that as time passes, fewer and fewer people know about them. I quote Jerome Greene '  I worked here in the summers of 1968, 1970 and 1971. In 1970, Superintendent William A. Harris assigned me the task of compiling as complete a list as possible of artifacts recovered from the battlefield over the years and recorded in the park research files, and of correlating their recovery points on a large aerial survey photo map of the terrain. One purpose was to try and determine clues to Custer’s defeat in 1876, based on materials dropped by the soldiers and their Sioux and Northern Cheyenne pursuers in the form of weapons, horseshoes, and military accoutrements, and primarily the hundreds of expended cartridge casings discarded during the fighting.

I soon found that this approach would not work by itself. The Custer field was too vast, the concentrations of artifacts that had been recorded, though plentiful, were too widely scattered to offer concrete answers by themselves. Something more than this kind of information would be needed to arrive at tentative conclusions regarding the demise of more than 225 cavalrymen at the hands of perhaps 1,500 warriors in 1876. Thus, I turned to investigating Sioux and Cheyenne accounts, hopeful that they would complement the record of artifact locations and give me more insight into what happened on the field. What I discovered was a largely untapped body of historical evidence that when meticulously integrated with other historical and archeological data promised to help round out knowledge of the Little Bighorn as well as of other engagements between the Indians and the army.' ^Source


Greene  verifies the map as a valid research source which indicates an area of finds in the swale between accepted locations for Companies L and I, besides the trail of artifacts along the eastern flank of the Luce, Blummer, NC, ridge line. This information pre-dates the 1983 fire and subsequent investigations and inventories and is not understood other than some worthwhile dissemination of data by old 'Beaver' Wagner III and the limited stock of publications by the landowners. I'm just pointing this up and not making points or opinion.

[deadwoodgultch]

Excellent! Welcome to the dark side.

Regards,
Tom