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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2018 5:49:15 GMT
The least said about fixer upper shows the better. Not all women need a whole closet just for shoes and not all men need a man cave.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jun 1, 2018 13:10:43 GMT
Do we know Terry's methods of travel from start to the battlefield. I know the steamboat for at least some of it. Did he ride before the steamboat and to the battlefield?
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Post by Beth on Jun 1, 2018 22:06:57 GMT
Do we know Terry's methods of travel from start to the battlefield. I know the steamboat for at least some of it. Did he ride before the steamboat and to the battlefield? He rode, and kept the most boring diary about it, unless you like reading about halt times. Actually there is more than start and stop times, but it is dry reading not like his overly wordy orders. I kind of wondered when I read it if Terry kept two diaries, his field diary and a personal one that has been lost to time.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Jun 2, 2018 20:37:47 GMT
I understand what a blocking force is suppose to do but in this case what direction did the Indians flee and how were they going to be blocked if you are not on their escape routes? Seems to me you have to surprise them and drive them up the valley and not give them time to select and alternate route.
The best way to do that would have all 12 companies driving from the south toward the blocking force. If Custer is moving to the north end of the village he is not trying to drive them toward the blocking force.
Regards
Steve Steve, If you think about it, with 20000 ponies and 10000 people you are going to need a great deal of water. If your path is blocked to go South then you are going to have to go North and the only way possible is to follow the river. The LBH then the Big Horn rivers to be able to have the water you need. This would lead them right to the blocking force. As to your second paragraph, I agree. Custer was doing what was best for Custer. If the Indians went North into Terry. Terry would get the credit not him. So he had to prevent that. To me that is the only reason he would attack from the North and go exactly against what Terry wanted, and against his mission. Be Well, Stay safe Dan
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Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2018 21:33:20 GMT
I understand what a blocking force is suppose to do but in this case what direction did the Indians flee and how were they going to be blocked if you are not on their escape routes? Seems to me you have to surprise them and drive them up the valley and not give them time to select and alternate route.
The best way to do that would have all 12 companies driving from the south toward the blocking force. If Custer is moving to the north end of the village he is not trying to drive them toward the blocking force.
Regards
Steve Steve, If you think about it, with 20000 ponies and 10000 people you are going to need a great deal of water. If your path is blocked to go South then you are going to have to go North and the only way possible is to follow the river. The LBH then the Big Horn rivers to be able to have the water you need. This would lead them right to the blocking force. As to your second paragraph, I agree. Custer was doing what was best for Custer. If the Indians went North into Terry. Terry would get the credit not him. So he had to prevent that. To me that is the only reason he would attack from the North and go exactly against what Terry wanted, and against his mission. Be Well, Stay safe Dan When you think about the huge amount of water, grazing and food needed for that large of population, you can see that the village was not going to last much longer and they would have had to break up into smaller groups. I know you guys am think I bring this up often but just the amount of waste produced would have taxed the ability of the area to get rid of it. I have mixed feelings about the possibility of a blocking campaign and its success. It would have been great for as a military objective but man it would have probably led to a horrific massacre, with just a tattered band of survivors rounded up and put back on the reservation.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jun 3, 2018 3:31:17 GMT
Beth, I don't think the possibility of a horrific massacre, with a tattered band of survivors rounded up and put back on the reservation would have bothered the government very much. The higher-ups surely knew that the three pronged attack plan, if successful against as large a force as was anticipated, would generate a large amount of Indian casualties, and the government was looking for a way to solve the Indian problem, more or less on a permanent basis, hopefully without involving genocide.
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Post by Beth on Jun 3, 2018 3:55:34 GMT
It might not have bothered the government but there would have been a good chance it would have upset a lot of voters. There wasn't unite about the "Indian" problem and a massacre would have been costly in PR plus it would have become a despised event in American history like Sand Creek.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 3, 2018 4:15:22 GMT
Clausewitz tells us that war is politics by other means. There are those who say the reservation system is genocide by other means.
Were it me I would rather die, rifle in hand with my face to the enemy, than live in abject poverty where the weapon of choice that would kill me is an empty whisky bottle or a needle in my arm.
I have a great deal of empathy for those who have had their manhood and dignity stripped from them, because they were inconvenient.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 3, 2018 9:15:33 GMT
"I have a great deal of empathy for those who have had their manhood and dignity stripped from them, because they were inconvenient." Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/712/why-terry-get-pass?page=3#ixzz5HLrtFebnI have said it before, the reservation system was an attempt at welfare system of sorts. The rez was an early attempt at our later day projects. This is certainly off the Terry topic. Another general/president started this system, Jackson, but we were pushing the NA's off and away long before even that time. Regards, Tom
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jun 3, 2018 15:48:33 GMT
Dan
The Big Horn river is west of the Big Village. I guess coming from Arizona and going to Montana and seeing all the green and water everywhere it doesn't have the same effect on me. We saw what happened when Reno with a larger force than Benteen attempted containing and driving the Indians. They moved up on bench and flanked him easily. Gordie writes that 4,500 of the occupants were not followed by Custer.
SFRC is full of water and feed and it is a travel corridor to the Rosebud.
Just because you want to block or drive it still requires sufficient manpower to do it. For me the key would have been Custer in the valley driving them before they could pack up. That would create an exigent circumstance that might have worked. The gap Custer created left MTC open for travel and it would east to go to the east and move through Tullocks.
Timing is important when choosing a tactic. Custer let them prepare for battle maybe he was thinking they preparing to leave. The big question for me is did they have to move at all if they were willing to fight? Terry's blocking force would be no help unless he moved.
I don't see that Custer was attempting to drive them north when he moved to the bluffs. I think he was attempting to contain them and there were to many willing to fight.
Semper Fi
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 3, 2018 19:56:13 GMT
I have not really contributed to this thread because I don't really know enough about this part of the campaign.
But thinking about it, if Terry was supposed to block the Indians as they tried to flee in mass from Custer's attack, and he and Gibbon where hanging around on the river course just waiting to mop up any rouge elements and then wham, 2000 armed braves smashed right through them. Terry had around 400 men, Gibbon had about 370, now if the Indians saw that the soldiers where blocking them, they could strike them as they did with Crook. The Indians would be armed with plenty of captured carbines too after they finished off Custer and Terry and Gibbon wouldn't know about the defeat on the LBH and wouldn't expect such a mass attack. So would there be a chance that this could be another Rosebud?
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