Why does Terry get a pass

[benteen]

May 26, 2018 20:14:12 GMT benteen said:

Just as a follow up, does anyone know why the font changed to some kind of script  at the end of my post. As I have said before computers and I dont get along. I still think a mouse is a rodent.

Be Well
Dan

[quincannon]

Perhaps I was not clear enough. The two statements when taken alone and out of context would lead someone in this day, knowing what they now know about Custer, to conclude that Terry was a poor judge of character as to trust in Custer's zeal and all that other rubbish. Therefore what was included in those two sentences would act as mitigating evidence in the court of public opinion, against Terry's judgment. I think that is quite true today, although I also believe it is undeserved.

I don't know if Terry was a poor judge of character or not. I think that is something each of us must decide for ourselves, by being around a person.

What would I do, I would sit on Custer so hard he would not be able to take a whiz without first seeking my permission, and that judgment of mine is confined to knowledge gained of the man prior to the 1876 Campaign. The problem is that had I done that it would be my conduct that would not be acceptable in the 1876 Army.

I follow your reasoning, and understand what is behind it, being the blocking force would be the easier of the two tasks, and the maneuver force was the place where immediate judgment calls were most likely to occur. In principle I agree with that the overall force commander should have been with the maneuver force.

My own premise must still stand however, in that I still believe Custer would have undercut Terry at the first opportunity, and that may have led to something even worse happening.

So, I guess that leaves us with only one agreed upon conclusion. Take Custer out of the mix, and outcomes may have been very different.

Might I say, that you are looking beyond the superficial here, and you are to be commended for it. Most times people who talk about this battle or any other confine their discussion to this tactic was right and this one wrong, if only this or that had happened. Truth is that most battles are decided long before they are fought by the personalities, beliefs, and judgments,made before the first shot rang out. The Bulge is a great example of that, in that had it not been for Bradley, the Germans would have never had that weak line to attack. Same with Midway and Guadalcanal. It was not so much in either case that we beat the Japanese, but rather the Japanese beating themselves, by insisting on overly complicated plans, and a warrior code no one still fully understands.

The font - Custer did it.

[azranger]

Early before leaving for patrol.

I think Terry gave Custer discretion when in close proximity. I think Custer created the close proximity when he moved up Davis Creek.  I think Terry gave Custer some direction of where he should go and what to do also. Custer was closer to the fresher trails on the Rosebud then he was to the Big Village. He knew of the Big Village because they scouted that direction. If he had sent the scouts further up the Rosebud he would have found fresher tracks and if had moved down the LBH after moving north he would have discovered evidence of additional thousands of Indians joining the Big Village.

Custer created his exigent circumstance by moving up Davis Creek. At that point he was weighing what Terry ordered him to do and not do (the order states what to do if the Indians turn toward the LBH which is exactly what occurred and Davis Creek is that travel corridor)  with what? So could sending at least scouts up the Rosebud at the same time he sent them up Davis Creek he would have had discovered fresher tracks indicating waring parties along with the current Big Village location. The problem is the assumption would be that Big Village only contained those Indians he was following.

At what point did sending Herendeen  become an option for Custer? Terry wanted the information and did Custer decide he didn't need it? 

I recently read William's comments that Custer could exercise his judgment to continue following the Indians trail. What I see is that Custer was single focus on making contact with the Indians he was following.

Regards

Steve 

[azranger]

I understand what a blocking force is suppose to do but in this case what direction did the Indians flee and how were they going to be blocked if you are not on their escape routes? Seems to me you have to surprise them and drive them up the valley and not give them time to select and alternate route.

The best way to do that would have all 12 companies driving from the south toward the blocking force. If Custer is moving to the north end of the village he is not trying to drive them toward the blocking force.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

Your comments are informative and interesting but you repeat the same old formula that has been aired on this board a hundred times over, and does not even attempt to answer the question Benteen posed.

So what then do you think about the question Benteen posed?

[colt45]

If I were Terry, I would have been with the maneuver element. Sitting back waiting for Custer to drive the Indians north is a passive way of managing the battle, which leaves you somewhat helpless to control the outcome, as well as blind to what is going on. And being the commander in the field in charge of the campaign, I would make sure I was in control at all times, which means going with the maneuver element and leaving Gibbon in the anvil position with orders to hold position when in the proper place and wait for the Indians to come to him.

The element most likely to need immediate reaction to changing situations is the maneuver element, in this case.

And to be sure, I would have had all 12 companies in the valley attacking from the south, with a company or two in the reserve position, so as to swing left through the area of the pony herd and get the village blocked on the south and west, with the east end blocked by the bluffs.  This would only leave north as the avenue of escape, right to the anvil force.

[mac]

Can I quickly throw in that there was a third force in the plan. What is the timing of anyone knowing about the Rosebud and the consequent withdrawal? How does this change Terry's thinking?

Cheers

[quincannon]

Adding to what Colt has so appropriately written, WATER people. They must stay together for mutual protection, and staying together means that they must have an adequate supply of water, and that mandates that they go north where the blocking force awaits them.

The only viable option for them going south or west mandated that they split up into tribal and sub-tribal grouping to be able to find water enough to sustain them, which eliminates having the mutual protection necessary in the close presence of the enemy.

Had Custer but cut access to the south and west he need not have done anything offensively. That would have left the Indians only two choices, 1) attack Custer (and the defense is the strongest form of war), or, 2) Go north. 

Battle or no battle the outcome would be the same, which comes full circle to what Dan and Colt said, the decision maker should have been with the maneuver force.

Don't look at the trees of twelve companies here, or axis of attack. It is the forest that should concern you, and that forest is the idea of out-thinking the enemy before you start a fight, and fighting only when fighting becomes absolutely necessary.

Mac: I don't have a clue. It sounds like a baseball game at opposite ends of the street, where not one of the players ever thought that it might be a better game if they were joined together.

[azranger]

May 27, 2018 15:18:31 GMT quincannon said:

Your comments are informative and interesting but you repeat the same old formula that has been aired on this board a hundred times over, and does not even attempt to answer the question Benteen posed.

So what then do you think about the question Benteen posed?

As far as Terry's choice of which command I have no clue to what he was weighing when he decided to make his choice so no need for me to comment.

I don't know why the font changed but I don't think Custer had anything to do with it.

Regards

Steve

[mac]

Maybe it is as simple as Terry didn't like Custer's company.

Cheers

[azranger]

May 29, 2018 3:55:39 GMT mac said:

Maybe it is as simple as Terry didn't like Custer's company.

Cheers

Maybe he preferred the steamboat to a horse.

Regards

[mac]

May 29, 2018 13:23:19 GMT azranger said:

May 29, 2018 3:55:39 GMT mac said:

Maybe it is as simple as Terry didn't like Custer's company.

Cheers

Maybe he preferred the steamboat to a horse.

Regards

I did think that but I was not cheeky enough to say it .
Perhaps he thought the task was straightforward enough that he was not required.

[azranger]

May 29, 2018 21:59:41 GMT mac said:

May 29, 2018 13:23:19 GMT azranger said:

Maybe he preferred the steamboat to a horse.

Regards

I did think that but I was not cheeky enough to say it .
Perhaps he thought the task was straightforward enough that he was not required.

I agree. The sideboards or lack of in the order are still debated today. I guess for me the only question is what would Terry have done when the trail turned up Davis Creek and would he have sent Herendeen to Gibbon to give the location of a Big Village.

Regards

Steve

[Beth]

May 25, 2018 21:58:17 GMT quincannon said:

Benteen: I never as a commander wrote such flowery phrase into any order I issued, but the same intent was always there, "Faith in your zeal enough to not hamper you in close proximity" "Do what I say unless you see the situation has changed, then do what you think best". If a commander sends a subordinate out without that requisite confidence then he has no business sending him out at all.

Are Terry's orders overly flowery or are they keeping with their era? 

[quincannon]

I think like nearly everything else they are a product of the times in which they are written.

It's sort of like - my compliments - I never gave any superior or subordinate my compliments before I ask for guidance or issued an order, but evidently that was the form, and expected, during this time period. I suppose had I lived during that time I would have given my compliments to everyone under the sun.

I suppose it is also something similar to every hair brained woman you see on one of those fixer up shows saying Oh my God, to begin every other sentence. Suspect that God does not give a rat's patoot about the color of Minnie Pearl's living room. Hair brained woman is not a sexist comment in this context. It is merely a statement of fact, and if you ever watched any of those shows you readily know what I mean. There are enough hair brained men as well. Hair brained knows no seasons, nor does the affliction ever change for the better.