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Post by Beth on Jun 5, 2018 20:01:49 GMT
My favorite has always been "Son of the Morning Star" Yes I know it is not the best book for a student of the battle, but I would guess that it got more people interested in the battle than any other. Be Well Dan I agree though I have to admit it was "The Last Stand: Custer, Sitting Bull, and the Battle of the Little Bighorn" by Nathaniel Philbrick that rekindled my interest enought to seek out message boards to clarify some information. Those books have a place at the library table but for many people they are the end of their journey, not the beginning. Speaking of Son of Morning Star--should we mention the TV mini series? Beyond the horrible casting, I thought it had a lot of merit as an introduction to Little Bighorn.
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Post by bret on Jun 23, 2018 10:46:37 GMT
I agree with Beth's May 7th 2018 post re WAGNER's Strategy of Defeat at the LBH. I found the book very good and well thought out using distances and times recorded by participants to create time lines. These time lines were a very good way for me to "get my head around" who was where, leading up to the Battle until Custer's split from Reno. As is apparent, what happen after the split can't be definitively established but WAGNER's version appears plausible to me. Also agree with Brigadier General's May 8th 2018 post re his recommendation of GRAHAM's works. I've only read GRAHAM's "The Custer Myth" and at first read was a little confused as it seemed to jump around a lot. That is likely because up till then I had read mainly books that didn't delve so deeply into the many many points of argument re this episode of American Frontier history eg Did Custer disobey his orders?, Were officer's untruthful at the RENO Inquiry?, Did BEENTEEN and RENO not support Custer because of a personal dislike of him, The arguments/debates caused by versions offered by persons years after the battle claiming that they had been there. etc etc I never knew such mysteries existed till relatively recently. And with all that in mind I find GRAHAM's book a great resource which I am often referring back to. On another note (really should put this is the thread re books one can't recommend) I'm currently half way through MICHINO's Mystery of E Troop and not overly enthralled by it. Just finished the section re NA's versions and found after his analysis of a particular NA's version, that his claims the NA's version meant "this" rather than "that" weren't convincing. Although his basic premise that a number of Troop E soldiers ended up in Cemetery Ravine rather than the more widely accepted Deep Ravine could be a possibility (Couldn't it??) Anyway I'll see if the book improves!!!!
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Post by quincannon on Jun 23, 2018 18:23:10 GMT
Assuming you were pushed off of Cemetery Hill, and in the process you have lost your horses, and while separated from other elements of the battalion by some distance, those other battalion elements are still in the fight, one would think that:
1) The initial instinct is to form a skirmish line in Cemetery Ravine, facing northward toward Cemetery Ridge. As events around you unravel, and friendly units start to drift away or retreat, the situation becomes more critical, and you withdraw your skirmish line behind the only available cover, that being the folds in the ground on the north lip of Deep Ravine.
2) Assuming all of the above paragraph is correct or nearly correct, it would seem logical for some who were left to seek cover spent their final moments in Deep Ravine, and some may have used the ravine itself as a place to hide. So Michino is probably at least half right. Some of Company E then was in both places.
3) Then we come to those who arrived on the 27/28 of June, and said there were (I think) 27 bodies in "a" deep ravine. Keep in mind here that there was no Cemetery, no Cemetery Ridge, no Cemetery Ravine, and no Deep Ravine at that time. It was just some more burnt over prairie with a lot of washes to drain off the rain of the ions of years before the battle. Both ravines, Deep and Cemetery were deep, deep in different ways but still deep.
4) Then there were those who brought all those markers to that place in a later year. It was their nasty job to pick over bones uprooted by animals and put together what little they could, get those markers in any place that was accessible and go the hell home. Can't say I blame them. Today of course it would all be different, but that was a different time, and while human instinct is to honor as best we can those fallen in battle, the fact remains they in that time had very little to work with.
I have often thought that how we spare no expense, and stick with it until the job is done today, we are in some way trying to make amends for the sins of our past. In the future there will be no Unknown Soldiers. We can only wish there would be no future wars to test the theory.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Aug 21, 2018 21:02:50 GMT
I don't know if "most useful" would be the correct term but Harvest of Barren Regrets: The Army Career of Frederick William Benteen is very helpful in understanding the conundrum that was Benteen. He lived a rough life with very few instances of good luck, other than his life, but he did have his standards and an unwilligness to alter his opinions and values. A hard discipline man in hard times. Regards Dave
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Aug 22, 2018 16:42:39 GMT
Alas I have not got the Gordie book, When people keep asking me what I want for my birthday of Christmas, I always forget about that book, I must get it though, maybe in July? Steve, do those hamburgers actually have ham in them or are they just all beef? I think the origin of the name will never be conclusive so it fits well with the LBH. The name may have come from Hamburg Steak which was ground up beef eaten raw. Depending on who you pick using bread to hold comes from several different potential origins. I like the Texas version where a customer was in a hurry and the Hamburg Steak was put between two slices of Texas Toast so the customer could take it out of the restaurant and get on his way.
So it's the beef in most cases but almost anything can be added to along with the ground beef.
The Trading Post doesn't like to serve raw beef which was the original Hamburg Steak. The also have buffalo burgers.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 22, 2018 19:50:36 GMT
Welcome back Steve, I had a wild boar burger the Sunday before last, Susan had book me to go on a flight simulator for my 60th, it was a surprise because I thought that the Normandy trip was my prezzy, anyway I took this jet all over the shop with the instructor sat behind, I had the full flying suit and helmet and had to land the bugger too, and I never crashed. The burger was good too, we went for a meal with Daniel and his wife in Manchester after by flight!
I had read a while ago that the origins of the burger came from the Mongols who used to leave patties of raw diced meat under their saddles while they rode all day, by evening this meat was okay to eat. I would expect that steak Tartar came from this too.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Aug 23, 2018 13:46:12 GMT
I read that also but the word Hamburg Steak was used with ground beef served raw. From there it mutated to several different meanings. It is still called hamburger in a package of raw meat. But you can't buy it raw at McDonald's.
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 23, 2018 14:33:08 GMT
Talk about some raw meat, if you are a Reno and Benteen hater, pick up E.A. Brininstool's 1957 book "Troopers with Custer". It may make you spit out your meat. Brininstool spent more than 60 years studying, interviewing, and corresponding with many of the participants. Portions of the interviews and correspondence are contained therein. I read the book years ago and recently revisited for notes and underlined portions. It remains a worthwhile read. He lays the poorly executed battle plan or lack thereof where it belongs, the regimental commander.
Regards, Tom
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Post by ray on Nov 27, 2018 4:54:34 GMT
G'day, folks.
Not that my opinion matters, but one of the first places I look when researching a battlefield (provided it's not a battle that Richard Sharpe participated in) is to see if any military body (e.g., CGSC or whatever) has published a staff ride on it. One thing I like about them is that they tend to reflect a reasonable mix of archaeology and history (both official and participant). That said, I was a bit disappointed in the BLBH Staff Ride that I found, possibly because it couldn't answer so many unanswerable questions - possibly because the battle has an almost mythical status (thanks, Errol Flynn, etc.). With both the military history and Bible teaching that I do, a person's preconceptions (and dogma) can get in the way. As an engineer, "Just the facts, ma'am."
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by quincannon on Nov 27, 2018 23:15:43 GMT
Borrowed a copy of the Leavenworth Staff Ride for LBH, from a friend of mine in the 1st Squadron, 3rd Cavalry, who did the ride as a TEWT some years ago. Thought the decision points were quite good, although it would not be the place I would go to find any new light shed on the battle.
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Post by rebcav on Jan 28, 2019 16:27:06 GMT
I got a copy of Michno's "The Mystery of E Troop: Custer's Grey Horse Company at the Little Bighorn". I'm still learning about the Battle, but I enjoyed the book. It answered for me the "28 missing bodies" question...
Winter Doldrums Have Me Ashore Duane
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2019 16:35:19 GMT
Well if you are looking for something to do while you are on the beach you can always come to my house and shovel the snow that is presently falling.
The E Troop book has stirred up a lot of controversy, and I don't think it has been largely well received, although I don't know why. It is simply one man's theory, and he states it as such. Much more realistic I think than a lot of the trash out there. Although it still may not be "the thing" it is "a thing" which most would do well to study, before they open their big yap to be critical.
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Post by rebcav on Jan 28, 2019 22:18:26 GMT
I'll pass on the snowshoveling, thanks. As to this battle- I'm still pretty much a rookie. I've read Philbrick's "Last Stand", "A Terrible Glory" by James Donovan, "Where Custer Fell" and now " The Mystery of E Troop". The first thing I read was the Time-Life Series' "The Soldiers" from the Old West Collection. The last chapter was on The Little Bighorn. I guess that's what started it all. In total, not really enough to speak intelligently on this battle. Hence my presence here. I'm learning lots, and getting some chuckles along the way. The Boat is in drydock until March, so I'll be around.
Hope this finds all well and in fine fettle, Aloha, Duane
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2019 23:35:33 GMT
Are you sure? I pay top wages, 50 cents an hour.
My boat has been in dry dock since 1988.
Of those, I would rate as best, "Where Custer Fell". My son used to reenact with one of the authors, the late Brian Pohanka, an arrogant son of a bitch, but you forgive most of that if the person knows his stuff, and Pohanka did, particularly on the ACW.
Despite what you read, get a map,cover it with acetate, lay out what you have visually on the map, then make your own decisions about what you think happened. If it does not make sense to you visually, chances are it did not happen the way someone you may have read said it did.
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2019 1:21:00 GMT
Geez, QC I got $.50/hour babysitting in the 70's. You need to at least go to $.65.
I have spent the whole afternoon finding Gwen warmer clothes on Amazon and making sure they get delivered tomorrow. Its funny how kids who have grown up in places with a mild winter seem to think they know everything about getting through some of the temps that they are predicting for Peoria.
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