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Post by Beth on Oct 22, 2017 21:33:58 GMT
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Post by Beth on Oct 22, 2017 21:39:26 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Oct 22, 2017 22:08:22 GMT
That is just the type of information I am looking for.
I also hope the cenotaph is not moved. For those not familiar the cenotaph sits right in the middle of the plaza, and while the cenotaph is like the individual soldier markers at LBH a grave marker with no occupant, moving it to one of the funeral pyre sites on the Alameda (modern Commerce Street) or the one on Houston Street which a fire house now sits on may be a more accurate representation of the site of the last known place of defenders remains, the disruption it would cause just is not worth the effort.
The Alamo if it lives up to its nearly two century billing as a shrine, should include that cenotaph on the battlefield itself, in my opinion.
I am glad they are finally finding a proper venue for the Phil Collins collection. He has done more alone for Alamo preservation than any hundred other men.
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Post by Beth on Oct 22, 2017 22:28:43 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2017 13:41:24 GMT
I am glad they are finally finding a proper venue for the Phil Collins collection. Phil Collins, wasn't he in the British rock group "Genesis"? Well, when you gotta go, you gotta go! link |
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Post by quincannon on Oct 23, 2017 14:57:18 GMT
He is British and he is/was a singer. He has also amassed the largest collection of Alamo artifacts in the world, and is very much a noted celebrity on San Antonio.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2017 19:33:49 GMT
It is him Chuck, well I never.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 23, 2017 22:30:39 GMT
Believe it or not there is one track on "Asleep at the Wheel Remembers The Alamo" album that immortalized Ozzy and the problems associated with the urgent requirement to urinate on the most holy of Texas treasures.
I am sure you will find it and post it, and it's funny as hell.
I don't know why Phil Collins became so involved with the Alamo, and the Alamo story. I have heard a couple of different reasons, but I believe the Alamo is a story that stirs the best emotions of the world at large - You can beat us. We know that, but we are staying anyway. Regardless his collection is the greatest ever assembled on the particular subject and it was freely given as a gift to the people of Texas.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 24, 2017 11:28:43 GMT
When Phil Collins was a kid growing up in a London suburb, he would often watch an amazing show on his family television. There, in black and white, was Fess Parker as Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier. As he matured, Collins not only acted out the exploits of his new hero, but he often refought the Battle of the Alamo with his toy soldiers. Even though music came to dominate his life, it was this love of history--and Davy Crockett and the Alamo in particular--that was always near by. On one musical tour, Collins encountered his first David Crockett autograph--for sale at a store called the Gallery of History. "I didn't know this stuff was out there, that you could own it," the rock-n-roll legend said. "It had never occurred to him. Later, he received a birthday-present that would change his life: a receipt for a saddle signed by an Alamo defender. From that point forward, the drummer began building his impressive Alamo and Texas Revolution collection.
Here, for the first time in history, are the artifacts, relics, and documents that compose the Phil Collins collection, available in a beautifully designed color book shot-through with stunning photography and crisply rendered illustrations. Collins’s prose takes the reader through the joys of being a collector as he lovingly describes what each piece in this impressive assemblage means to him. Photographer Ben Powell of Austin brought these items to vivid relief, and artist Gary Zaboly’s masterful pen-and-ink drawings breath life into the items. Essays by Texas historians Bruce Winders, Don Frazier, and Stephen Hardin provide the historical background to the collection and help make this into a work of art that also serves handily as a serious research tool.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 24, 2017 11:52:05 GMT
I had my guitar next to me so I played along with this version, it is much better than the Donovan arrangement, nice guitar solo too, which I picked out. link |
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Post by quincannon on Oct 24, 2017 15:18:50 GMT
Ian: The guitar on that cut was played by Ray Benson, with an assist from Jason Roberts. Primarily Benson though.
The Kingston Trio did a very good version of "Remember The Alamo" on an album they did back in about 57-58 that also contained one of their all time best - "Scotch and Soda"
The song about Ozzy, and his bladder problems is called "Don't Go There" and is cut #12 on that same album
The Travis letter is considered one of the ten most important documents in American history, and among those ten are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Another member of that rather elite club is the "Nuts" letter from Bastogne, a document written by McAuliffe as a Christmas greeting to the 101st Airborne Division in 1944. Together, all ten speak to the ideals and values we have as Americans, which may be in many ways similar to those found in the rest of the world, but still unique to the American character. You want to know what makes the American Army different, what makes it tick, then you start with those ten documents.
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Post by Beth on Oct 24, 2017 23:37:55 GMT
Ian: The guitar on that cut was played by Ray Benson, with an assist from Jason Roberts. Primarily Benson though. The Kingston Trio did a very good version of "Remember The Alamo" on an album they did back in about 57-58 that also contained one of their all time best - "Scotch and Soda" The song about Ozzy, and his bladder problems is called "Don't Go There" and is cut #12 on that same album The Travis letter is considered one of the ten most important documents in American history, and among those ten are the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Another member of that rather elite club is the "Nuts" letter from Bastogne, a document written by McAuliffe as a Christmas greeting to the 101st Airborne Division in 1944. Together, all ten speak to the ideals and values we have as Americans, which may be in many ways similar to those found in the rest of the world, but still unique to the American character. You want to know what makes the American Army different, what makes it tick, then you start with those ten documents. I have to agree that Scotch and Soda is the Kingston Trio's best-I heard them perform it in concert in the 80's and by that time there was enough of that 'smoke and whiskey' tone in their voices to really sell the song over the much earlier versions. I am going to have to look up and read those 10 documents. Sometimes it is important to continue to remind yourself what we mean as a country. |
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679 
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Post by dave on Oct 28, 2017 23:48:34 GMT
When Phil Collins was a kid growing up in a London suburb, he would often watch an amazing show on his family television. There, in black and white, was Fess Parker as Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier. As he matured, Collins not only acted out the exploits of his new hero, but he often refought the Battle of the Alamo with his toy soldiers. Even though music came to dominate his life, it was this love of history--and Davy Crockett and the Alamo in particular--that was always near by. On one musical tour, Collins encountered his first David Crockett autograph--for sale at a store called the Gallery of History. "I didn't know this stuff was out there, that you could own it," the rock-n-roll legend said. "It had never occurred to him. Later, he received a birthday-present that would change his life: a receipt for a saddle signed by an Alamo defender. From that point forward, the drummer began building his impressive Alamo and Texas Revolution collection. Here, for the first time in history, are the artifacts, relics, and documents that compose the Phil Collins collection, available in a beautifully designed color book shot-through with stunning photography and crisply rendered illustrations. Collins’s prose takes the reader through the joys of being a collector as he lovingly describes what each piece in this impressive assemblage means to him. Photographer Ben Powell of Austin brought these items to vivid relief, and artist Gary Zaboly’s masterful pen-and-ink drawings breath life into the items. Essays by Texas historians Bruce Winders, Don Frazier, and Stephen Hardin provide the historical background to the collection and help make this into a work of art that also serves handily as a serious research tool. Deadwood I received my copy of Phil Collins's The Alamo and Beyond yesterday and I have enjoyed every page so far. The photos of his items are extremely interesting and informative and would recommend this book to all with enthusiasm for the Alamo and its participants. Regards Dave |
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 3, 2017 15:14:11 GMT
While reading Collin's new book, a throw away remark caught my attention and spurred me to further study the battle and its participants. Collins mentioned that there were over 200 plus defenders which was in opposition to my long held belief that there were 180 or so defenders who died on March 6, 1836.
I looked further into the matter and discovered that Dr. Amelia Williams's Ph.D. dissertation, "A Critical Study of the Siege of the Alamo and of the Personnel of its Defenders," was the beginning of the acceptance that there were 189 defenders who perished. Over the years an additional 70 or so names have been added to the martyr's shrine. So what is the more accurate number?
In my search I have visited the Texas State Historical Association and am searching their data base for additional information as to the number of defenders who perished. It is a very large site so I will be searching for awhile which is OK as I love getting sidetracked studying history.
I would be interested in others thoughts as to this subject if you wish to share.
Regards
Dave
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Post by quincannon on Nov 3, 2017 17:15:18 GMT
By God you do know how to open a can of worms Dave.
Travis's letter says he has 150 troops. That was the first day of the siege. What we do not know is if he was saying he had 150 effectives, soldiers that were capable of fighting, or if he included in those 150 those that were confined to the second story of the long barracks, who were wounded or injured during the battle for San Antonio in December 1835. We do not know how many were being treated and I have seen numbers ranging from 10 to 30 give or take.
We also know that the Gonzalez Mounted Ranging Company broke into the Alamo around the 1st of March. They numbered 32.
We also know that on the night of 3 March some elements of the defenders sortied to the Garza Sugar Mill (a combat patrol), and that as far as I can tell gave birth to what is called the second reinforcement theory, where according to the theory another group of unknown size also broke in, aided by those that went to the Garza Mill. As far as I am concerned the theory is too cute by half. Such a thing would have to be preplanned, on both ends (defender and break in force) and I see no evidence of it.
There was also a lot of people who came and went, as messengers, and I don't believe anyone has a real good handle on how many and in some cases who they were. We know some of the names but not all.
There were also a number of native Mexicans who were among the defenders and I don't believe all of those people have been fully documented.
In addition there very well could have been some that entered the Alamo in ones and twos, dribs and drabs in other words that were not mentioned in any of the surviving documents.
Ruiz, the Alcalde of San Antonio says that he burned about 250 bodies after the battle in three or more funeral sites in the immediate vacinity of the mission. Some of them very well could have been Mexican soldiers. Maybe not though in that cremation was forbidden at the time by the Catholic Church, and Mexican soldiers were at least nominal Catholics. One defender was spared cremation, a Mexican who family was in the Alamo.His name was Esparza. His son, aged 12 at the time was the last of those inside the Alamo to die around the turn on the last century.
Finally there is the matter of the break out. That did occur, and most probably occurred at three different locations on the east side of the Alamo complex. The heaviest fighting actually took place outside the walls, to include the park behind the chapel, the present location of the Menger Hotel, Saint Joseph's Church, and as far north on Houston Street as the present firehouse. This fighting was in complete darkness, and I think it highly possible that some of the defenders may have escaped in the darkness, not many, probably less than ten, and have subsequently been lost to history. My opinion alone here, just something based upon prevailing conditions. Texas at the time was completely barren. There was no place to seek help, food or medical aid, so any that escaped may very well have perished in the wilderness. Did any make it, maybe, there have been rumors and stories over the years. One such has an escaped defender making it all the way to the area that is now Houston, only to die shortly thereafter from a combination of wounds and exposure.
Then there is the story of Moses Rose, which I believe may be true, but the embellishment by the Zuber family makes the whole story highly suspect.
All in all I think that a figure of 210 to 220 is probably nearer the mark than 180-189, but the numbers will never be completely accurate I think because there is still so much we do not know and probably will never find out.
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