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Post by mlynn on Jul 19, 2017 15:04:39 GMT
This stands out: What had gone wrong? Reno’s Civil War career had been creditable; he’d demonstrated bravery on several occasions and been commended for handling his men “gallantly and steadily” and praised for his “coolness, bravery and good judgment.” Even General Philip Sheridan, a tough taskmaster, characterized Reno as “full of energy and ability.”
He was also breveted colonel in the US Army and brigadier general of US Volunteers. Some people have a promising start but let life's circumstances beat them down. This last line says so much. We don't know how much Reno was suffering mentally from his past "glory" days. His changes in "life circumstances" was dramatic and dealing with coming from the so call glory days of his command in the CW to the last remains of the Army in the Western theater fighting in a not so glorious war with few heroes. I would be curious as to when his drinking started and how much it increased during this time.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2017 15:23:29 GMT
There was a time ML, when people stood at attention when I entered a room. Today, right now, I am on my hands and knees removing carpet tack strip from the floor in my den, preparing that floor for the installation of new hardwood flooring. My "Glory Days" it seems are over. The larger question though is how we deal with what is in the past in our lives. Successful people compartmentalize the past for what it is a time gone by, and something we cannot change. It only adds to the burdens of life to dwell on what is no more. It enriches our lives to embrace this day, and look forward to tomorrow. In my case tomorrow will involve removing base board and starting to paint woodwork. Still I embrace today and look forward to tomorrow, for beyond tomorrow a new phase in my life begins, a new den. How the mighty have fallen.
The bottom line is that we are what we are today, not yesterday, and dwelling on yesterday clouds today, and brings storms on the morrow.
I should also add that I clean toilets, scrub bathtubs, do the laundry, take out the trash, and wash dishes at least twice a day. That situation is not caused by the servants having the day off.
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Post by mlynn on Jul 19, 2017 17:12:13 GMT
There was a time ML, when people stood at attention when I entered a room. Today, right now, I am on my hands and knees removing carpet tack strip from the floor in my den, preparing that floor for the installation of new hardwood flooring. My "Glory Days" it seems are over. The larger question though is how we deal with what is in the past in our lives. Successful people compartmentalize the past for what it is a time gone by, and something we cannot change. It only adds to the burdens of life to dwell on what is no more. It enriches our lives to embrace this day, and look forward to tomorrow. In my case tomorrow will involve removing base board and starting to paint woodwork. Still I embrace today and look forward to tomorrow, for beyond tomorrow a new phase in my life begins, a new den. How the mighty have fallen.
The bottom line is that we are what we are today, not yesterday, and dwelling on yesterday clouds today, and brings storms on the morrow.
I should also add that I clean toilets, scrub bathtubs, do the laundry, take out the trash, and wash dishes at least twice a day. That situation is not caused by the servants having the day off. I totally agree with you! I think it is obvious that you have adapted to the change in your life. I feel like I have too but, many, many do not deal well with change and they are tortured by what was for them in the past. I just wonder if Reno was one of those people and it made it hard for him to function 100% in his present. BTW, I think when a lot of us get older, we realize that our "Glory Days" didn't mean all that much in the whole picture of our lives. My life is very different now and I have never been happier with living for today. I did what I had to do yesterday and I do what I have to do today. That is life. I am impressed with your present day activities. Your rewards have changed and that is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2017 17:59:22 GMT
I'm not impressed. After I retired the flooring business was my second set of Glory Days, and I would just as soon have left them in the past as well.
A technical point though. The preparation for any flooring installation regardless of type of product is 99 percent in terms of importance to the whole job. I would sooner insure that my prep, for my floor, was done to my standards, not the standards of someone who can't wait to finish a small job, and onto a large one, with more money involved.
The point is with Reno, and indeed with Custer and many of the rest is that they had achieved some measure of fame very early in their lives, and again many did it without putting a lot of the hard work of practice and study into it. It was handed to them by the circumstance of the ACW. When it was over and the ones that chose to remain in the Army were hit smack in the face with reality, low pay, stagnation in rank, assignments to the most godforsaken places on earth, and Oh Yeah, you might get killed in the process. Sure as hell is not like leading a parade down Pennsylvania Avenue is it?
Custer was probably far worse that Reno. To him what he had been was everything. He even insisted that the personal flag of a division commander be present when he took the field. That is like owning a brand new Cadillac, having to trade it in for a twenty year old Ford, and keeping your key ring with the Cadillac emblem on it, as if they were still the keys to that Cadillac. Does not make much sense does it?
I am going to crawl into my Silver Oak Leaf jammies now and take a nap.
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Post by Beth on Jul 19, 2017 19:29:48 GMT
Trouble is though Tyree, is that he was 2/IC of the regiment that took to the field. Custer had to use him in some capacity. Custer's choices were thin on the ground, he could keep him close and use Benteen to charge down the valley, but for some reason he wanted Benteen out of frame and chasing satellite villages. But Custer must have had enough faith in him to allow him to lead this attack, either that or there was simply nobody else. I have posed this question before, I am not on the board as much as I would like so if it has been answered perhaps I missed it. First let me say that I think Major Reno did as good a job as anyone could including the break out, being the position he was put in. In todays Army communication is done by radio. In my day it was a PRC10 (Walky talky). The radio operator was joined at the hip to the C.O. In those days it was the bugler. Now my question. We know that some men did not get the word in the timber and were left behind. I am sure there was a bugle call for retreat or something to that effect. If Renos bugler was with him why didnt he utilize him. If not with him then why was he not with Reno. Was he shot or killed. If anyone knows the answer, I would appreciate it. Be Well Dan I believe that if you blow the trumpet for a breakout, it would alert the enemy that something is planned and it would give them probably just enough warning to act first, such as shore up a weak point in their lines. Reno's breakout worked because the NA had no idea it was about to take place and by doing the breakout Reno managed to save a large number of his men.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2017 19:52:40 GMT
It is amazing what a couple of years spent paying attention has taught you Beth. Very good.
Like a boxer is taught not to telegraph his punch, a tactician is taught never to hang out a neon sign labeled "Look At Me", especially when he intends to do something sneaky, underhanded, and so unsportsmanlike as breaking out of a place you are trapped.
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Post by Beth on Jul 19, 2017 22:41:13 GMT
I found this article interesting: www.historynet.com/misrepresented-monster-major-marcus-reno.htmI have a certain amount of empathy for Reno. As far as I can tell, he was a rather ordinary man of ordinary abilities that was thrust into an extraordinary situation. That he could have done some things better I believe. But he was hardly the definition of incompetence and cowardice that he has sometimes been portrayed as. As I have said elsewhere, It seems to me Reno was handed chicken poop and criticized for not being able to make chicken soup. Reno's reputation was very carefully destroyed by Libbie Custer, Frederick Whittaker, Rosser and others. If Custer was to be a hero, he needed a villain in his life so they focused on Reno and Benteen for not saving Custer. The choice of Reno failing because of alcohol was a very well chosen them because it was just as the Temperance movement was just finding its legs in the US.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Jul 19, 2017 23:52:29 GMT
We all know a "Marcus Reno" who not matter what happens is always out of place, late or lost. The man could not help but to step on himself at every step. The man could not catch a break is seems. He had 1 friend out of the whole regiment and that was a subordinate officer who Reno went to find in the middle of the battle. He was not a personable man who lack charisma and elan. In an army and a day and time when courage and manliness was demanded he seemed to screw the pooch at every turn. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2017 1:00:18 GMT
Except when it counted Dave. If he did nothing else in his career or indeed his life he saved the lives of most of those men who came out of that timber with him.
I don't know this, but I have seen it happen in other places, I wonder how much of all those things you spoke about were actually having the word put out on him by Custer or someone else. It an old techniques where the swells make a guy's life so miserable that he either seeks a way out or is just totally marginalized within an organization. I think all the signs are there, but I do not have any one thing or things I can firmly hang my hat on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 9:59:40 GMT
LBH is an outlier battle in military history. The normal method is to look at the commander and his decisions as to how it impacted the outcome.
LBH is wrapped in romance and fantasy. The normal process of Battle Focused Analysis just fail. LTC Custer gets a free ride for his gross incompetence, because he is a Pretty Boy. Pretty boy is a common term in SF, for a spotlight ranger who is incompetent, but keeps getting promoted for looking nice and relentless self promotion. (COL Hans Bush was shoved out of SF for gross incompetence, he went into public affairs, where his incompetence ended the careers of 6 very good senior SOF leaders).
In LBH, subordinates are blamed for following the orders of the commander. The commander gets a free pass. I know of no other battle in our history of battles (4000 years), who get this pass. Blaming subordinates for executing the orders they were given is a huge no no in military culture and history.
It has been very frustrating for me personally to try to bring rational analysis to LBH. I believe we need to use the same analytical process we use for every battle and campaign that ever occurred, to LBH. Yet we have one process we apply, to 10,000 battles, and another unique to LBH.
We had the LBHA board of director responsible for the LBHA official forum, tell us that the LBHA is not about factual history, or justice, or rational thought, it is about the fantasy, the romance. He was very sincere, very passionate, and I believe him.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2017 14:06:34 GMT
I thoroughly understand the points Montrose is making here, the most salient being frustration. With that I will disagree a little, not much.
Unlike Montrose I find it really easy to bring rational analysis to LBH. All one needs to do is look at the positions of the forces arrayed. We don't even have to look at the decisions behind that positioning, or the testimony of Chief Thunderthud, as to who came close to the river, who did this, or who did that, who scalped Putt in his own parking lot, none of it. All of that is immaterial. The positions alone provide the basis of analysis for determining why the battle was lost. It is a much more simple process at LBH than it is in 99 percent of other battles throughout history.
The cause of defeat - was defeat in detail, that by spreading an already small force over vast distance, completely out of range of mutual support . That is a given. Then having determined the proximate (root) cause, we must put a name on that cause, and that name is always the same - the commander. That commander was Custer. He issued the orders that caused defeat to happen. No one else was responsible, for only one bears overall responsibility.
So Montrose is right about the frustration because for many rational thought and factual content means little if anything. It is all about romance and fantasy, who let their sincerity and passion override the analytic function of the brain.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 20, 2017 17:14:31 GMT
I think I told all, that we had the opportunity to meet Reno's G.G.G.Grandson this year. I also know I have mentioned in the past that Reno was denied leave when his wife died, yet his commander could get leave to go visit Broadway to se shows and hobnob. His wife's family disowned him. This was prior to 1876. Major Reno's descendent agreed with me that for all intents and purposes the Major died at the LBH.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2017 17:35:45 GMT
That Tom is about as close to the truth as you can get. He was emotionally wounded when his wife died. The wound became infected with LBH, the aftermath, and RCOI, and from that point he was emotionally a dead man.
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Post by Beth on Jul 20, 2017 20:54:12 GMT
It has been very frustrating for me personally to try to bring rational analysis to LBH. I believe we need to use the same analytical process we use for every battle and campaign that ever occurred, to LBH. Yet we have one process we apply, to 10,000 battles, and another unique to LBH. We had the LBHA board of director responsible for the LBHA official forum, tell us that the LBHA is not about factual history, or justice, or rational thought, it is about the fantasy, the romance. He was very sincere, very passionate, and I believe him. LBHA, the organization, is about Custer, it is literally a George Armstrong Custer fan club. If you read their Facebook page you will see that they fanboy over George, Libbie and George and Libbie. Whenever the names Reno and Benteen come up they boo. They refer to Native Americans as red savages. The group will not continue to exist long if it insists that it only looks at the battle when it gives GAC a positive light. They are not interested in anything beyond Custer. There just aren't that many people out there who are only interested in Custer-except perhaps in Monroe Michigan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2017 22:02:05 GMT
I would love to know what the average age of that organization is. From what I gather most of the leadership is older than well trodden dirt.
I don't think that, if my assumption on average age is true though, that this Custer worship is all that odd. It really is an every day occurrence in society at large. As one gets older they long for what was.
Many truthfully do not understand why Podunk, West Virginia, is not the same old Podunk that it was sixty years ago. Why is the Dairy Queen offering those godawful things you see advertised on TV when back in the day there were just Chocolate and Vanilla milk shakes? Why isn't the corner hardware store still in business? Why doesn't dime store no longer have hardwood floors? Where the hell is the dime store anyway? Why do I have to travel all the way to Grinder Switch to get some gas, when we used to have a Sunoco on Main Street, with a pop machine with strawberry fizz in bottles? Why is the Lone Ranger still not on the radio?
The Custer of these people's youth is still their same Custer. Then he was a hero, perhaps a betrayed hero, but a hero none the less, and their hero.
Like many other things that we talk about occasionally here, times change. Heroes become idiots as new information emerges. Life is not the simple thing it was. It never was but that is just another way of fooling one's self. Attitudes change, Gas stations change, Everything on this frigging earth changes, and we either change, adapt, and yes, overcome those changes or they will run over us like a freight train.
There is a very old expression in the retail trades, one I have posted here before ---- If you are doing business today, like you did it yesterday, you will be out of business tomorrow. That is true in business. It is true in life.
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