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Post by sgttyree on Jul 17, 2017 18:46:48 GMT
I found this article interesting: www.historynet.com/misrepresented-monster-major-marcus-reno.htmI have a certain amount of empathy for Reno. As far as I can tell, he was a rather ordinary man of ordinary abilities that was thrust into an extraordinary situation. That he could have done some things better I believe. But he was hardly the definition of incompetence and cowardice that he has sometimes been portrayed as. As I have said elsewhere, It seems to me Reno was handed chicken poop and criticized for not being able to make chicken soup.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 17, 2017 18:56:10 GMT
This stands out:
What had gone wrong? Reno’s Civil War career had been creditable; he’d demonstrated bravery on several occasions and been commended for handling his men “gallantly and steadily” and praised for his “coolness, bravery and good judgment.” Even General Philip Sheridan, a tough taskmaster, characterized Reno as “full of energy and ability.”
He was also breveted colonel in the US Army and brigadier general of US Volunteers.
Some people have a promising start but let life's circumstances beat them down.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 17, 2017 18:56:54 GMT
Trouble is though Tyree, is that he was 2/IC of the regiment that took to the field. Custer had to use him in some capacity. Custer's choices were thin on the ground, he could keep him close and use Benteen to charge down the valley, but for some reason he wanted Benteen out of frame and chasing satellite villages. But Custer must have had enough faith in him to allow him to lead this attack, either that or there was simply nobody else.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 17, 2017 19:21:42 GMT
When I say "ordinary man of ordinary ability" I don't mean to be overly critical. I just mean that Reno was not an inspirational figure or one of the greats. I don't mean to imply he was without ability or a liability to the operation. Just the opposite, in fact.
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benteen
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Post by benteen on Jul 17, 2017 19:50:42 GMT
Trouble is though Tyree, is that he was 2/IC of the regiment that took to the field. Custer had to use him in some capacity. Custer's choices were thin on the ground, he could keep him close and use Benteen to charge down the valley, but for some reason he wanted Benteen out of frame and chasing satellite villages. But Custer must have had enough faith in him to allow him to lead this attack, either that or there was simply nobody else. I have posed this question before, I am not on the board as much as I would like so if it has been answered perhaps I missed it. First let me say that I think Major Reno did as good a job as anyone could including the break out, being the position he was put in. In todays Army communication is done by radio. In my day it was a PRC10 (Walky talky). The radio operator was joined at the hip to the C.O. In those days it was the bugler. Now my question. We know that some men did not get the word in the timber and were left behind. I am sure there was a bugle call for retreat or something to that effect. If Renos bugler was with him why didnt he utilize him. If not with him then why was he not with Reno. Was he shot or killed. If anyone knows the answer, I would appreciate it. Be Well Dan
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 17, 2017 20:02:31 GMT
Hi Dan, great to hear from you. Reno had five Trumpeters in his battalion, unfortunately it looks like they were all with their companies.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 17, 2017 20:32:51 GMT
A PRC-10 was a back pack radio. A PRC-6 was commonly called a walkie talkie and used for internal communications within a platoon, whereas the PRC-10 was the platoon's radio used to communicate with the other elements of the company, including communications with the company commander.
I do not know that a trumpet (not a bugle - bugles were not used in the cavalry) was not used. I have never seen or heard reports one way or the other. So to suppose one was not used is a fact to the best of my knowledge that has never been placed in evidence.
By the same token we do not know if any of those company level trumpeters used or did not use a trumpet to assemble their troops prior to this breakout attempt. They may have, but to my knowledge we just do not know.
It is not uncommon for people to get left behind. It is unfortunate, but not uncommon. Further we do not know the circumstances of any who were left behind. There could be many of those that were outside the control of company or battalion leadership. Among those would be.
1) Pinned by enemy action.
2) Being physically cut off from their fellows.
3) Failing to hear appropriate orders.
4) Fear - Cowardly conduct - Refusal to obey an order.
All of these things do happen, and they happen far more often then one might think. They happen in the best of units. They happen more frequently in the inept or untrained unit.
There is absolutely nothing unique or abnormal about any of this.
If anyone wants to know what a bugle is during this time period, look only to the insignia atop a 19th century kepi, or that other abdominal hat worn with one side of the brim turned up. The bugle was the branch insignia of the Infantry during most of the 19th century, until it was replaced by the now more familiar crossed muskets. Don't ever say crossed rifles either. They are crossed muskets.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 17, 2017 20:41:19 GMT
Are they muskets or do they have rifled barrels, I will have to check the next time I see them. I have a flintlock with a rifled barrel, much more accurate!
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Post by quincannon on Jul 17, 2017 20:49:21 GMT
They are muskets, and the symbolism is the musket used by the Continental Soldier.
There were rifled muskets used during that time period, by people like Morgan's Rifles. There were also rifled muskets used by some members of the militia. The ones depicted in the Infantry Branch insignia though are the unrifled smooth bore musket of the Continental soldier. Most were or were copies of the Brown Bess.
The Continental Line used the smooth bore rifle because its use was consistent with rifle drill taught by von Steuben. The rifled musket was slower to load and therefore inconsistent with the rifle drill of the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 12:17:00 GMT
Before the breakout, M and A companies were mounted in company column. Battalion was waiting for G Company. The majority of those left behind were G Company, plus our friend DeRudio.
Bugle calls were used in M and A companies, I don't know about G.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 18, 2017 15:02:05 GMT
You provided your own clarification when you refer to people like Voss as Trumpeter Voss.
I answered your question. Do you not read? Do you not believe what I say? Do you think I would deliberately lie to you? What in the hell is wrong with you? Get off of your personally imposed pity party that seems to kick in when someone does not agree with you. Disagreement is not disrespect or dislike, it is disagreement.
For your edification AGAIN.
The cavalry used a trumpet in the 19th century. Those that used it were called trumpeter, and held the rank of trumpeter. In the cavalry the music made was referred to as a trumpet call.
In the Infantry the same role was filled by a bugler, and he used a bugle. In the Infantry the music made was called a bugle call
Point of Fact: In WWII the 1/4 ton General Purpose Utility Vehicle was called in the cavalry, a Bantam. It was originally designed by the Bantam Car Company, but production was taken over by another company. Everyone else in the whole wide world called this very same vehicle the Jeep, meaning general purpose. Why the cavalry called this vehicle the Bantam while the rest of the world called it a Jeep, and still does, is probably because they could, and for no other real good reason. It is the same with trumpeter/bugler. Over time both started to use the same instrument, but the two names were retained - because they could and for no other discernable reason.
Why does one of your cavalry regiments in the British Army have a Corporal Major as the highest ranking enlisted soldier. I would suspect it is for no other good reason other than they could.
Tradition means something, and in the cavalry the tradition was to refer to field music as trumpet calls, not bugle calls, played by a trumpeter.
You have stirred things up. You have by your post said that you neither believe Wagner or myself. Knowing Wagner, he did not just tell you that. He most likely provided you with essentially the same information I did. It is incumbent on you therefore to check that information out, but that is not done, by asking someone else, who may or may not be in possession of the correct information. It is done by independent research. To continually ask these questions when they have been asked and answered borders on insult to those who have freely shared with you what they know. I don't want to speak for Wagner, but I will speak for myself in saying that neither of us would ever tell you something that we did not know and believe to be the truth. Both of us have a lot of faults, but that is not one of them.
Is this clear enough to you so that you will not have to ask for an additional second opinion.
May I suggest you start your independent research by obtaining the multi volume "Horse Soldier" by the late Randy Steffan that covers everything that need be known about American horse cavalry from the Revolutionary War to the final dismount in 1943. Everything you will ever require about the subject is contained therein.
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benteen
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Post by benteen on Jul 18, 2017 20:12:21 GMT
Hi Dan, great to hear from you. Reno had five Trumpeters in his battalion, unfortunately it looks like they were all with their companies. Ian, Thank you, it is always a pleasure to speak with you as well my friend. Now, this presents another question. He had five trumpeters but only three companies. What happened to the other two? Be Well Dan
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benteen
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Post by benteen on Jul 18, 2017 20:15:46 GMT
Before the breakout, M and A companies were mounted in company column. Battalion was waiting for G Company. The majority of those left behind were G Company, plus our friend DeRudio. Bugle calls were used in M and A companies, I don't know about G. Col Montrose, Thank you for that response. It made no sense to me that no one would use the communication system that was available to them. Now I know that they did. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Jul 18, 2017 21:50:53 GMT
Each company was authorized two trumpeters Benteen. Seems like they may have been short one.
I already know what is wrong Ian, so do you. There is no need to ask by PM.
It is up to you to fix it. No one can do that for you.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2017 10:12:56 GMT
Ian: If you cannot read and understand what I said "Disagreement is not dislike or disrespect, it is disagreement" then nothing I can say to you, in any format will make any difference, no matter how much I wish it to.
Now you have either got to come to grips with what is bothering you, or not. It is your choice. It is upsetting to me that you feel whatever you feel, but no one but you can solve it.
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