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Post by sgttyree on Jul 16, 2017 3:39:25 GMT
Tonight's feature is "The Horse Soldiers."
"I left my love, my love I left....."
It's pretty good as long as you can overlook 1873 Springfield carbines in 1863. 😁
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Post by quincannon on Jul 16, 2017 4:50:46 GMT
I overlooked Winchester carbines and Colt Single Action revolvers and the fact Fort Sill, Oklahoma was not established until post ACW in the Comancheros set the Texas Republic of 1840, so what the hell.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 16, 2017 15:27:23 GMT
Kevin I am sure you know that the Horse Soldiers was based upon a book by Harold Sinclair.
What you may not know is that Sinclair wrote a follow up called "The Cavalryman" where COL Marlowe goes to Dakota Territory against the Sioux in 1864. I have seen it, but never read it. Thought it might be something you would be interested in.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 16, 2017 17:21:37 GMT
As all know the movie was loosely based on the Grierson's Raid through Mississippi as part of Grant's Vicksburg campaign. Benjamin Grierson's mission was to disrupt Confederate efforts to reinforce Pemberton's army in Vicksburg by forcing Southern cavalry to chase and prevent the destruction of the Southern Railroad from Meridian to Jackson and eventually Vicksburg. This was an incredible accomplishment by the Union soldiers.
The route taken was fairly close to my hometown and I have followed the raid's route several times. The highlight of the film was the assembly of the cadets of Jefferson Military College and their march to and then participation in the battle. This action was based upon the real life participation of the VMI cadet's at the Battle of New Market.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 16, 2017 19:48:43 GMT
I noticed the Confederate battery commander had named his guns Peter and Paul.
I once read that a battery commander told Stonewall Jackson that his guns were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jackson replied, "I trust you will take every opportunity to spread the gospel."
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 16, 2017 22:11:02 GMT
That sounds like something Jackson would have said. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jul 16, 2017 23:25:36 GMT
I am going to ask you a question Dave (or anyone) that my father repeatedly ask of me.
Who did Jackson ever beat. To my dad Jackson was highly overrated and made so by a bunch of piss poor U S Army generals. A Dark Cloudism of puffing up the guy who beat you so you will not look so bad.
Remember now - who did Jackson ever beat - Jackson.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 16, 2017 23:37:45 GMT
Oh, QC! Thou may have just blasphemed! That's a bit like pointing out to a man from Tennessee on a "Forrest v Stuart" thread that Forrest usually played against the "second string."
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 17, 2017 0:11:19 GMT
But having said that, I really can't answer your question.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 17, 2017 1:17:42 GMT
Banks, Shields, and Fremont
All the rest he was operating under the supervision of Lee. He failed Lee twice, and they were his failures, both concerned the execution of Lee's explicit orders.
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dave
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Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 17, 2017 3:05:28 GMT
Jackson was a follower not a leader as was Longstreet. Lee handled them as needed and used them to the best effect he could. Jackson's behavior during the 7 Days Battles was late, ineffective and generally out of sorts. It might have been fatigue and or confusing orders but he under performed during late June of 1862. June 26 was his worst day of not being where he was supposed to be.
Jackson was successful in the Valley Campaign as you pointed out as he was fighting with the JV team of Union generals so it is difficult to evaluate his abilities. Then there is the old question about what if had Jackson been at Gettysburg? I personally believe he would have been late getting to Gettysburg on the 1st of July and would not have made a wit of difference in the outcome of the 3 days fighting.
I do believe that your personal favorite commander, Nathan Bedford Forrest would have made a much quicker and stronger attack on the 1st day than Ewell!
Tyree, QC is of the opinion that all those who fought for the South were traitors supporting the worst of all causes and has no sentiment for galvanized Yankees as yourself. Organizations such as the SCV, UDC or supporters of the Museum of the Confederacy which has become the American Civil War Museum. Confederate soldiers are buried in various National Cemeteries such as Shiloh, Arlington and Cypress Hills were my GGGrandfather is buried after dying of cholera at Hart Island POX camp in May of 1865. It gnaws on him. Regards Dave
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 17, 2017 3:38:24 GMT
Dave,
Forrest my personal favorite? Not sure if that was for me but if it was then my post was misinterpreted. I believe the best Confederate cavalryman - "best" meaning the most able at all traditional cavalry tasks - was probably Stuart and only Stuart's subordinate Wade Hampton approached his ability in that regard. That's my belief but I don't invest a lot of emotional capital in the idea and certainly won't get worked up if you disagree.
You see, I've read where author Eric Wittenberg believes that Forrest was overrated and that his successes were against "the second string." What I was trying to say was that I've found out that's not a popular viewpoint with Tennesseeans. Go figure. I also meant that Jackson fans - and I'm not really here nor there on Jackson - probably feel the same way when someone says Jackson's opponents were second rate.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 17, 2017 15:06:39 GMT
I would echo Kevin's comments concerning Stuart. He was the best at performing the "traditional cavalry tasks" in either army. To me it was a horserace between Hampton and Fitz Lee, as to who was first runner up. Lee chose Hampton, and I will let that rest. Lee was the commander.
Jackson failed Lee twice, the first at the first of the Seven Days, and there is no acceptable excuse for his failure NONE. He failed him again on 1 September 1862 when had he moved at a steady pace on the 31st and morning of the 1st he would have trapped Pope's Army, cut it off from Washington and destroyed it. There was no excuse for that either. NONE.
No it is not difficult to evaluate Jackson in the Valley. He was erratic. In each instance he beat but did not destroy. Every time Lee put Jackson out where he was operating independently he failed in some measure. He failed to destroy Banks (of all people) at Cedar Mountain. He moved out of his undetected lines to confront King at Brauner's Farm (Second Manassas), bring on a larger battle that Lee who was coming with Longstreet could not readily support, the distance being too great and Thoroughfare Gap blocked. Jackson risked the complete destruction of his corps in doing so.
The point above being that for the confederate army every battle had to be Cannae. Beating was never good enough. It must be a battle of destruction. Banks, Shields, and Fremont in the Valley provided the means through their own incompetence for that destruction to take place. Jackson had the opportunity to destroy three time and failed. Jackson was nearly beaten at Cedar Mountain. It is the only recorded time Jackson drew his saber to rally his retreating troops. He did. He turned the situation around, but again he failed to pursue and destroy. Jackson was operating semi-independently at Cedar Mountain
Jackson got his ass handed to him by a bunch of bench warmers at Kernstown.
Galvanized Yankees were confederate prisoners of war who were offered parole on the condition they would fight Indians during the ACW. After that point, post 1865, anyone who joined the Army from a former confederate state was a United States Army Soldier, as were both Kevin and myself, and that term only exists Dave, in your fertile imagination and romantic visions of the south.
Treason in this country is the taking up of arms against the United States. Did I miss something concerning the events of 1861-65 Dave. Were not arms taken up against the United States.
For those that do not know I am a Virginian. What remains of my family resides there. I received my first Meritorious Service Medal (a Federal award), and my second Commonwealth of Virginia Achievement Medal from the Adjutant General of Virginia, standing beneath the portraits of Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson.
The frigging war is over Dave and your side lost. It is the act of a hypocrite to on one hand say that it was the worst of all causes, and on the other support, defend, applaud, and make excuses for the society that spawned that cause.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 17, 2017 15:24:23 GMT
My side did not lose as you infer and I do not make excuses for those who choose to honor their ancestors. I said that Confederates being buried in National Cemeteries, the UDC and the SCV gnaws on you not that I am still fighting the War. I study the ACW and the people involved in the struggle but I do not worship or adore them nor wish to repeat their actions. Regards Dave PS Tyree sorry for the jest remark that was misunderstood regarding Forrest
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Post by quincannon on Jul 17, 2017 15:34:46 GMT
You are still fighting the civil war by defending the society that spawned what you consider awful.
Why would you think I have any objections to Confederate Soldiers being buried in United States National Cemeteries. I don't. They fought for what they believed in. I would have no more objection to that than I would about two people, one from the Army, and one an Indian being buried side by side anywhere in this nation. Your views, as it regards my position on the matter is rubbish.
I do not really think you realize what your verbalization of your study sounds like. I study the ACW as well, but only to derive the lessons learned from that conflict. If someone in either Blue or Gray was good, or bad I say so, without all that romantic aura of magnolias in bloom that you seem to surround your defense of the south with.
The states that formed the confederacy committed treason against the United States. That is not my opinion. It is fact. They took up arms against the United States which is the very definition of treason. They then tried, and still do try, to cloak treason in the garment of states rights. In the United States, states rights are formulated by Congress and adjudicated in the Courts, not by force of arms.
When you embrace the cause of the confederacy, for any reason, they become your side, and your side lost. You do embrace that cause by saying that the cause was awful, but in the same breath make excuses for the society from which that awful cause sprang. You are trying to have it both ways.
I once inquired of you why you continually referred to the ACW as "The War". When you hear that these days, phrased in that same way, most are referring to World War II. Your answer, and I paraphrase, where you live the ACW was the only war that matters. Why is that? Why is it the only war that matters? Do you not see my whole argument, summed up in that statement of yours? It matters because you and the society you live in continues to let it matter. That on the face of it is wrong, if you in the same breath pledge your allegiance to the United States. You cannot serve two masters. You must serve Caesar, or the society that still considers a lost cause sacred. Your first and only obligation is to the United States of America, and you cannot fulfill that obligation having any lingering sympathy with treason, treasonous acts, or those whom to this day perpetuate that treason.
Allegiance to the United States is a one way street. It must be pledged without any reservation. If that allegiance comes into conflict from time to time with anything, it must be superior to that anything, and that includes hard choices from time to time. Those choices must be made though, and always made in the favor of the Union of States, not any one state or group of states but to the United States. It also includes the society of the United States as a whole and not any portion of that society. Allegiance to the United States is a one way street.
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