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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 19, 2017 12:35:20 GMT
William L Shirer's classic should be required reading for any European history student, world history student, military buff, etc. I presume that most people on this board have read it. If not, be forewarned that the book is looooonnnngggg.
For me, the point of view of the journalist v the historian was fascinating as Shirer deep dived onto politics, behind the scenes machinations, interrelationships between the perpetrators of the Nazi horror, etc., as opposed to dissecting individual battles. Rise and Fall is by no means a chronological review of WWII in Europe. There are some flaws such as IMHO, he gives short shrift to several critical battles which were influential to the war's outcome. For instance a great deal of editorial is spent on Stalingrad but The Battle of the Atlantic and Operation Overlord are not much more than footnotes.
Shirer's resources include his own experiences and writings from his time as a US journalist stationed in Berlin prior to the war, and primary materials/secret Nazi documents discovered postwar. Evidently German efficiency did not extend to destroying incriminating documents.
I give The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich a solid 4.5 out of 5 stars.
Comments welcomed and expected!
Best,
David
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2017 16:08:28 GMT
That was pretty much the same impression I had. Rise and Fall is a cautionary tale that all democracy is fragile, even the supposedly strong ones, if the conditions are right, and those conditions are very nearing right here.
We live in a blame everyone else for our problems society. That leads inevitably to tribalism. If you wish to know the features and benefits (Tom will appreciate that, he mentioned the widely known sales term just yesterday)of tribalism just look to the middle east. Is that what anyone want's here?
Hell you don't have to go that far. Just look at the brown board. Is that what you want here?
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Post by Beth on Jun 19, 2017 17:49:02 GMT
The brown board will not ever happen here because neither I or anyone else who posts on this board would allow it. Even if the entire one or two remaining posters on the brown board showed up here, they would not allowed to behave the same manner they do on the brown board and quite frankly I don't think they would.
There is a sick culture over there that has driven away anyone of value and they are left with the crypt keeper and his goons. Frankly I sometimes wonder if the goons are just trolls who have found a place to see exactly how far they can push it before they can bring down the wall and force a padlock on the doors.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2017 18:05:21 GMT
My idea of "'here" is the US, not this board.
The type of thing we see on the brown board is tribalism with a small tribe. If you do not belong to the tribe you are the enemy. That is the point. Now expand that to our society at large. If you do not belong to a certain tribe, you are the enemy.
If that tribe is religious, all other religions are the enemy.
If you are white, black, brown, red or yellow, everyone who is not white, nor black, nor brown, nor red, nor yellow, is the enemy.
If you belong to one political side, the other side is the enemy.
That is the story of Rise and Fall, and we cannot let it become America's story.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2017 18:15:10 GMT
If you wish to see what the face of America is and should be, look at the faces and surnames of the sailors that died on Fitzgerald. That is America. Everyone of those men were where the were so you could sleep last night.
If anyone does not like that, then that person not liking is not American. It is just that simple.
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Post by Beth on Jun 19, 2017 20:02:38 GMT
QC we got wires crossed on the brown board. I am thinking of my own sort of tribalism by protecting these four walls. I am not so good right now on beyond that.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2017 20:33:20 GMT
There is nothing wrong with protection that is what borders, fences and walls are for. When exclusion replaces protection, it becomes a problem.
If you invite someone into your house, and that someone disagrees with you, they disagree, but are not automatically your enemy. When that someone misbehaves in your house, they are not necessarily your enemy either, but you have every right to ask them to leave, because of their misbehavior. It is the act of misbehavior then that is the causal factor, not disagreement.
If we set an example of openness, most who come will integrate into that openness. Those that do not, and who feel that it is the openness itself that is the enemy are misbehaving.
There was a poll published just last week that said the 40 percent of the American public would not marry a member of the opposite political party. That is a higher number than those who in other polls said that they would not marry outside their race or religion, and also a higher number than those who said they would never accept homosexuality. That is disturbing, and it must stop, and there are only 300 plus million people who can stop it -US.
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Post by Beth on Jun 19, 2017 21:20:27 GMT
I think that it is a matter of priorities QC, you are forgetting one other major statistic rate and that is the divorce rate-and any value you can share with your partner will increase the ability to maintain a healthy marriage. If you don't agree with your spouse, SO or life partner on the big issues, you are going to find even small issues like toilet seats, toothpaste types and under or over with the TP insurmountable.
We have become a country of people (and a world) who unfortunately who can neither deal with the big issues or the little issues and every issue just becomes a bone of contention. I don't know how many people saw the LBH thing on CBS this morning on Sunday but they ran another piece that same day about the lessons learned playing Little League. I believe that CBS puts all of those features up on their site after they show them so this is a heads up to anyone who missed the bit on LBH but I would also recommend the Little League part as well.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 19, 2017 21:54:02 GMT
I am married to a person who does not fully share my political views and never has. We both have evolved in those views over time and the process continues.
The divorce rate is high because all too many go into marriage buying that slop that marriage is all lollypops and roses, a Hallmark Channel view of life and life's partnerships. If you do not marry a person who was your best friend before you are married you are a fool. If you marry for lust you are a fool. Lust fades. If you marry because you are overwhelmed by love, you are a fool. Love moderates to a state of comfortable grace. If you marry unprepared for the hard work of marriage you are a fool. The work starts from the first - I do - and continues to the last farewell.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679 
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Post by dave on Jun 20, 2017 3:10:12 GMT
Meanwhile back at the ranch, the Rise and Fall was published in 1960. As far as I know it has never been updated with the discovery of new files, evidence and material that has come to light in the past 57 years, would it not be well worth the effort by an enterprising writer to update the book? Could it be done? Just an idle question.
Regards
Dave
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 20, 2017 13:48:39 GMT
Meanwhile back at the ranch, the Rise and Fall was published in 1960. As far as I know it has never been updated with the discovery of new files, evidence and material that has come to light in the past 57 years, would it not be well worth the effort by an enterprising writer to update the book? Could it be done? Just an idle question. Regards Dave A good thought. Should be done by a journalist. What I think makes Shirer's book unique however, is the intermingling of his personal experiences with primary source documents discovered shortly after the war. Not sure what else could be added. Howzzat for a nebulous answer 🤓 Best, David |
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2017 14:04:33 GMT
Howzzat
I didn't know that you was familiar with cricket terms David.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2017 14:48:28 GMT
Agree with David. Rise and Fall is a unique book. It does and should remain as an intact stand alone.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 20, 2017 17:02:45 GMT
Howzzat I didn't know that you was familiar with cricket terms David. I am a regular Renaissance Man, Ian. |
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 20, 2017 20:56:57 GMT
And here I sit while all the time I thought Slim Whitman was the true Renaissance Man with such classics as "Indian Love Call" and "The Cattle Call"! Man do I feel like a fool.
Regards
Dave
QC is as upset as I am as he is also a true fan
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