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Post by quincannon on May 8, 2017 13:58:25 GMT
My opinion is that this type of division would have been miserable in the desert, and in Europe gross overkill.
Looking at all these organizations, regardless of national origin you get the impression that they were floundering around looking for the right combination at the right echelon of command, until about 1944.
The right combination turned out to be a fully integrated tank-infantry-engineer-artillery-logistics team at brigade level, each part having the same degree of mobility, and adequate to role protection.
The right combination turned out to contain the "battle" tank, therefore any organization equipped with a specialized tank, could not live up to the organizations potential.
I am no mathematician, but I do know that when you first set about solving a complicated mathematical problem,you can expect trial and failure, and a long period of work in progress. 1930 to 1970 was the period of trial and error, the work in progress phase of solving the problem.
Over time the BEST solution for 99 percent of the tactical situations that are found on the mechanized or armored battlefield (any terrain) is an organization consisting of
A headquarters company, with integral signal and military intelligence assets. A strong cavalry troop, commanded by a field grade officer (chief of scouts), although some think a squadron would be better - My opinion is a "normal" troop is not big enough, and a squadron is too much. Again, a very strong engineer company commanded by a field grade officer (brigade engineer), with organic bridging assets. Two Mechanized Infantry battalions, each with a headquarters and four rifle companies. One tank battalion, with a headquarters and four tank companies One Field artillery battalion (self propelled) with a headquarters and three firing batteries One support battalion, containing a headquarters plus one each supply, maintenance, and medical company.
One thing that has been found is that there is never enough Infantry. The ratio for most battle activities should be two (and many think three) to one.
The only change I would consider if operating in a desert environment to what I have above is the addition of one more tank battalion, to add more balance in open terrain.
Note: All organizations are indicated with US designations.
Now I am going to go way out on a limb, and say that organizing an armored division during WWII for any country was a huge mistake, and each country that did so would be better served in organizing in its stead a balanced (two and two) brigade level organization. The basis for that statement is a review of how each nation utilized their armored formations, not as divisions but as brigades, kampfgruppe, combat command.
The US for instance would have been better served in organizing thirty balanced armored brigades/combat commands, than the sixteen armored divisions they did organize. Essentially the thinking behind the armored division in all the combatant countries was the cavalry division. By WWII we found the cavalry division (I am talking about the echelon here not horses) as such was obsolete, but the crying need for cavalry was at a lower level. I believe the same to be true for the armored division.
Opinions, I am sure, will differ.
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Post by yanmacca on May 8, 2017 14:03:21 GMT
Chuck, I have been working on this unit for my web site, but I cannot locate the commander as the web site I use to locate officers has been temporarily closed down. The unit was the 1st cavalry division and it was the only formation of that type in the British and to serve in ww2. It mainly fought in the middle east against the Vichy French and captured Baghdad. They ended up converting it to an armoured division. Here is what I have so far;
1st CAVALRY DIVISION WWII
Reformed 31st October 1939 and converted into the 10th Armoured Division in 1st August 1941. Disbanded Egypt 15th June 1944.
Divisional Headquarters Intelligence Corps 1st Cavalry Divisional Signals
Brigades 3 x Cavalry Brigades [Each Containing 3 x Cavalry Regiments] 4th Cavalry Brigade 5th Cavalry Brigade 6th Cavalry Brigade
Divisional Artillery 104th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 106th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 107th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment
Engineers 2nd Field Squadron Royal Engineers 141st Field Park Troop Royal Engineers
Strength 11.097 All Ranks 8.081 Horses Bren Light Machine Guns: 203 Vickers Medium Machine Guns: 36 Boys Anti-Tank Rifles: 166 25 pounders Gun/Howitzers: 48
Served: Great Britain Palestine Iraq Syria
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Post by quincannon on May 8, 2017 17:09:31 GMT
John George Walters Clark
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Post by yanmacca on May 8, 2017 19:24:33 GMT
Thanks Chuck.
I have finished the document and all it needs is a nice photo, so here it is, do you all think it should be added to my site?
1st CAVALRY DIVISION WWII
Reformed 31st October 1939 and converted into the 10th Armoured Division in 1st August 1941. Disbanded Egypt 15th June 1944.
Served: Great Britain Palestine Iraq Syria
Commander: Lieutenant General J.G.W. Clark [31st October 1939 to 1st August 1941]
Divisional Headquarters: Intelligence Corps 1st Cavalry Divisional Signals Light Aid Detachment
Brigades:
4th Cavalry Brigade [31st October 1939 to 31st July 1941] Commanders: Brigadier J.J. Kingston [23rd October 1939 to 28th June 1940] Lieutenant Colonel A.A. Mc Bean [28th June to 2nd July 1940] Brigadier J.J. Kingston [2nd July 1940 to 27th February 1941] Lieutenant Colonel A.H. Ferguson [27th February to 9th May 1941] Brigadier J.J. Kingston [9th May to 29th June 1941] Brigadier J.G.E. Tiarks [29th June to 1st August 1941] Units: Household Cavalry Regiment [13th November 1939 to 12th January 1941 Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry [3rd December 1939 to 2nd October 1940 & 8th January to 31st July 1941] North Somerset Yeomanry [15th November 1939 to 21st March 1941] Household Cavalry Regiment [13th January to 31st July 1941] Warwickshire Yeomanry [22nd March 1941 to 31st July 1941] 3 x Light Aid Detachments
5th Cavalry Brigade [31st October 1939 to 31st July 1941] Commanders: Brigadier T. Preston [3rd September 1939 to 3rd January 1940] Brigadier C.H. Miller [3rd January 1940 to 8th September 1940] Lieutenant Colonel Lord Grimthorpe [8th September 1940 to 8th October 1940] Brigadier K.F.W. Dunn [8th October 1940 to 16th September 1941] Lieutenant Colonel W.L. Wilson [16th September 1941 to 22nd September 1941] Lieutenant Colonel D.E. Williams [22nd September 1941 to 27th September 1941] Colonel C.H Gaisford St Lawrence [27th September 1941 to 23rd April 1942] Units: Yorkshire Dragoons [3rd September 1939 to 18th March 1942] Yorkshire Hussars [3rd September 1939 to 22nd March 1941] Nottinghamshire Yeomanry [3rd September 1939 to 2nd February 1941] Cheshire Yeomanry [21st March to 7th June 1941 & 15th July 1941 to 21st March 1942] North Somerset Yeomanry [21st March 1941 to 20th March 1942] Staffordshire Yeomanry [30th April to 4th June 1941] 3 x Light Aid Detachments
6th Cavalry Brigade [31st October 1939 to 31st July 1941] Commanders: Brigadier H.O. Wiley [3rd September 1939 to 18th May 1940] Brigadier J.I Chrystall [18th May 1940 to 27th February 1941] Lieutenant Colonel P.L.M. Wright [27th February to 10th May 1941] Lieutenant Colonel G.H.N. Todd [10th May to 18th May 1941] Brigadier L.S. Lloyd [18th May to 8th January 1941] Units: Cheshire Yeomanry [3rd September 1939 to 20th March 1941] Staffordshire Yeomanry [3rd September 1939 to 28th April 1941 & 5th June to 31st July 1941] Warwickshire Yeomanry [3rd September 1939 to 21st March 1941] Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry [3rd October 1940 to 7th January 1941] Yorkshire Hussars [23rd March to 31st July 1941] Greys [1st March to 31st July 1941] 3 x Light Aid Detachments
Divisional Artillery 104th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 106th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 107th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 3 x Light Aid Detachments
Engineers 2nd Field Squadron Royal Engineers 141st Field Park Troop Royal Engineers Light Aid Detachment
Supply & Transport Group Group Headquarters Cavalry Division Ammunition and Petroleum Company Cavalry Division Supply Column
Medical Services 3 x Cavalry Field Ambulances Cavalry Division Hygiene Section
Veterinarian Services 3 x Mobile Veterinarian Sections
Strength & Weapons: 11.097 All Ranks 8.081 Horses Bren Light Machine Guns: 203 Vickers Medium Machine Guns: 36 Boys Anti-Tank Rifles: 166 25 pounders Gun/Howitzers: 48 Transport: Bren Carriers: 6 Dragon Tractors: 72 Motorcycles: 574 Motor Vehicles [All Types]: 1.158
I will of course check those dates for the Brigade commanders, as the only web site I really trust is down at the minute.
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Post by quincannon on May 9, 2017 2:48:09 GMT
If you are asking my advice on this as an addition to your web site, and intend to use this as a divisional format, I believe it contains too much information.
As an alternative I think you should only mention the brigades assigned, and not their internal construct, along with the other division assets, in much the same was as was done with the US divisions.
I would also drop all the mention of horses and tractors,machine guns, and such because some smart ass is going to come along, provide conflicting information that will bite you in the ass and reflect badly on your site.
If you will send me this same information on this division by e-mail, not PM, I will give you an alternative format for you to review,
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Post by yanmacca on May 9, 2017 11:36:34 GMT
Thanks Chuck, please check your e-mail box.
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Post by quincannon on May 9, 2017 13:36:33 GMT
Can't open the e-mail attachment. Don't have office.
Put it on a PM thread the way we did with the US divisions
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Post by yanmacca on May 9, 2017 13:45:38 GMT
I have been searching for a divisional logo for the 1st cav div, but according to George Forty they didn't have one, which is a shame, but I have found a nice photo of some of the troopers circa 1940, the picture was took in Transjordan, so I will use it to head the page and interactive link.
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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2017 14:47:05 GMT
Chuck, I have took your advice and streamlined the UK Divs, I have stuck closely to your format so here is 1st Armoured Division in its old form;
1st ARMOURED DIVISION
Formed: 3rd September 1939
Lineage: Mobile Division (November 1937)
Garrison: York
Service Record: Great Britain France Egypt Libya Tunisia Italy
Operations and Campaigns: Battle of France Western Desert Campaign Operation Brevity Operation Battle Axe Operation Crusader Battle of El Alamein Tunisian Campaign Battle of Tebaga Gap Gothic Line Battle of Coriano
Unit Structure 1939 to 1945
Divisional Staff Commanding Officers: Major General R. Evans (15th July 1938 to 24th September 1940) Major General W. Norrie (24th September 1940 to 5th November 1941) Major General H. Lumsden (5th November 1941 to 3rd January 1942) Major General F. Messervy (3rd January to 12th February 1942) Major General H. Lumsden (12th February to 19th July 1942) Major General R. Briggs (21st August 1942 to 15th July 1943) Major General A. Galloway (17th July 1943 to 14th August 1944) Major General R. Hull (14th August 1944 to 24th November 1944)
Brigades:
2nd Light Armoured Brigade (3rd September 1939 to 14th April 1940) Commander; Brigadier R.L. McCreery (15th January to 14th April 1940) 10th Royal Hussars 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays) 9th Queens Royal Lancers
2nd Armoured Brigade (14th April 1940 to 25th September 1944) Commander; Brigadier R.L. McCreery (14th April to 12th December 1940) Brigadier R. Briggs (14th December 1940 to 20th August 1942) Brigadier A.F. Fisher (20th August 1940 to 31st December 1943) Brigadier R.W. Peake (31st December 1943 to 18th February 1944) Brigadier G.W. Goodbody (18th February to 22nd September 1944) Brigadier J.F.B. Combe 22nd September 1944 to 1945) 10th Royal Hussars 2nd Dragoon Guards 9th Queens Royal Lancers 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade 9th Battalion King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry
1st Heavy Armoured Brigade (3rd September 1939 to 14th April 1940) Commander; Brigadier V.V. Pope 2nd Royal Tank Regiment 3rd Royal Tank Regiment 5th Royal Tank Regiment
3rd Armoured Brigade (14th April to 4th October 1940) Commander; Brigadier J.G. Crocker 2nd Royal Tank Regiment 3rd Royal Tank Regiment 5th Royal Tank Regiment
1st Support Group (3rd September 1939 to 11th February 1942) Commander; Brigadier F.E. Morgan 101st Antitank Regiment 101st Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment
22nd Armoured Brigade (14th April 1940 to 4th November 1941) Commanders; Brigadier J.T. Leslie (21st October 1939 to 26 July 1940) Brigadier G. Dawes (26th July to 26th August 1940) Brigadier A.R. Selby (26th August to 1st September 1940) Brigadier I. D. Erskine (11th February 1941) Lieutenant Colonel J. Moubray (5th October 1941) Brigadier J.C.O. Marriott (20th October 1941) 2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars 2nd City of London Yeomanry 3rd City of London Yeomanry
200th Guards Brigade Group (12th January to 20th May 1942) Commander; Brigadier J.C.O. Marriott (14th January to 25th May 1942) 1st Battalion Durham Light Infantry (28th February to 23rd May 1941) 3rd Battalion Coldstream Guards (11th March 1941 to 20th June 1942) 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade (29th September 1941 to 4th June 1942) 2nd Battalion Scots Guards (28th February to 16th June 1942) 1st Battalion Buffs (7th June to 21st September 1941)
201st Guard Motor Brigade Group (21st May to 14th June 1942) Commanders; Brigadier J.C.O. Marriott (25th May to 17th June 1942) Brigadier J.A. Johnson (17th June to 20th June 1942) Brigadier J.A. Gascoigne (14th August 1942 to 13th November 1943) Lieutenant W.H. Kingsmill (13th November to 27th November 1943) Brigadier R.B.R. Colvin (27th November to 4th December 1943) Lieutenant W.H. Kingsmill (4th December to 13th December 1943) Brigadier R.B.R. Colvin (13th December 1943 to 4th January 1945) Brigadier H.R. Norman (5th January to 31st August 1945) 3rd Battalion Coldstream Guards (25th August 1942 to 23rd June 1943 & 22nd July 1943 to 12th March 1944 & 1st April to 3rd August 1945) 2nd Battalion Scots Guards (25th August 1942 to 27th June 1943) 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade (1st September to 5th September 1942) 6th Battalion Grenadier Guards (7th October 1942 to 17th November 1944) 1st Battalion Irish Guards (3rd March 1944) 1st Battalion Welsh Guards (11th April to 3rd August 1945)
7th Motor Brigade (23rd September 1942 to 19th July 1943) Commanders; Brigadier T.J.B. Bosville Brigadier M.D. Erskine (30th June to 20th July 1943) 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade 2nd Battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps Minefield Task-force
18th Lorried Infantry Brigade (20th July 1943 to 16th February 1944) Commander; Brigadier M.D. Erskine (20th July to 5th October 1943) 1st Battalion Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment) 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) 9th Battalion Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - formerly the Queen's Own Yorkshire Dragoons 14th Battalion Sherwood Foresters 53rd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment Royal Artillery (Organised as Infantry)
18th Infantry Brigade (5th October 1943 to 16th February 1944 & 17th August 1944 to 28th October 1944) Commanders; Brigadier M.D. Erskine (20th July 1943 to 7th February 1944) Lieutenant Colonel G.H.G. Smith-Dorrien (7th February to February 1944) Brigadier M.D. Erskine (20th February to 27th October 1944) Brigadier A.D. McKechnie (8th October to 27th August 1944) Lieutenant Colonel J.S.H. Douglas (27th August to 18th December 1944) 14th Battalion Sherwood Foresters 1st Battalion Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment)
Divisional Troops
Armoured Division Signals (Royal Corps of Signals) 1st Armoured Division Signals (3rd September 1939 to 17th December 1944)
Royal Artillery 2nd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (24th August 1942 to 26th September 1944) 4th Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (21st September 1942 to 25th October 1943) 11th Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (24th August 1942 to 26th September 1944) 60th Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery (1st May 1944 to 26th September 1944) 76th Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery (22nd September 1942 to 31st March 1944) 42nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment Royal Artillery (26th September 1942 to 5th October 1944)
Royal Engineers 1st Field Squadron RE (1st February 1940 to 4th February 1942 & 2nd September 1942 to 29th September 1944) 7th Field Squadron RE (23rd October 1940 to 19th March 1942 & 1st October 1942 to 20th August 1944) 627th Field Squadron RE (21st August 1944 to 29th September 1944)
1st Field Park Squadron RE (3rd July 1940 to 25th August 1944) 631st Field Park Squadron RE (26th August to 29th September 1944) 1st Field Park Troop RE (1st August to 2nd July 1940) 27th Bridging Troop RE (18th October 1943 to 25th August 1944)
Reconnaissance 12th Lancers (1st November 1940 to 12th May 1942 & 13th November 1942 to 6th April 1944) 1st The Royal Dragoons (12th April to 13th September 1942) 4th Hussars (23rd May to 25th September 1944)
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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2017 14:48:04 GMT
Now in its new form;
1st ARMOURED DIVISION
LINEAGE: Formed November 1937 as the Mobile Division Converted 3rd September 1939 and redesignated 1st Armoured Division Disbanded 11th January 1945
COMMANDERS: Major General R. Evans [15th July 1938] Major General W. Norrie [24th September 1940] Major General H. Lumsden [5th November 1941] Major General F. Messervy [3rd January 1942] Major General H. Lumsden [12th February 1942] Major General R. Briggs [19th August 1942] Brigadier T.J.B. Bosville (Acting) [27th April 1943] Major General R. Briggs [21st August 1942] Brigadier R. Peake (deputy) [15th July 1943] Major General A. Galloway [17th July 1943] Brigadier E.P.N. Jones (Acting) [18th February 1944] Major General A. Galloway [29th February 1944] Brigadier R.W. Goodbody (Acting) [8th March 1944] Brigadier E.P.N. Jones (Acting) [14th March 1944] Colonel J.R. MacDonnell (Acting) [19th March 1944] Brigadier E.P.N. Jones (Acting) [24th March 1944] Major General A. Galloway [27th March 1944] Brigadier E.P.N. Jones (Acting) [10th April 1944] Major General A. Galloway [10th May 1944] Major General R. Hull [14th August 1944] Lieutenant Colonel T.E.F. Vogel (Acting) [24th November 1944]
AREAS OF OPERATION
WORLD WAR II Great Britain France Egypt Libya Tunisia Italy
ORDER OF BATTLE
Division Headquarters Intelligence Corps Detachment 1st Armoured Division Signals [RCOS]
2nd Light Armoured Brigade 2nd Armoured Brigade 1st Heavy Armoured Brigade 3rd Armoured Brigade 22nd Armoured Brigade 200th Guards Brigade Group 201st Guards Brigade Group 7th Motor Brigade 18th Lorried Infantry Brigade 18th Infantry Brigade 1st Support Group 12th Lancers 1st Royal Dragoons 4th Hussars Headquarters Royal Artillery 2nd Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 4th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 11th Royal Horse Artillery Regiment 60th Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery 76th Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery 42nd Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment Royal Artillery 1st Field Squadron, Royal Engineers 7th Field Squadron, Royal Engineers 627th Field Squadron, Royal Engineers 1st Field Park Squadron, Royal Engineers 631st Field Park Squadron, Royal Engineers 1st Field Park Troop, Royal Engineers 27th Bridging Troop, Royal Engineers
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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2017 14:51:28 GMT
It is still lacking its supporting units like RAMC and RASC, but the main doubt in my mind is the brigades as not all of these served with the division at the same time and some even went back and forth between the divisions.
That is the bugbear between the US and UK divisions, they are more likely to change units then the US ones.
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Post by quincannon on May 15, 2017 15:28:57 GMT
I think George Forty is wrong, and I believe the 1st Cavalry Division used the Foxmask, the same as 10th Armored used. What you need to do is see when the Foxmask was approved for use by checking Whitehall records and not Forty. He, it has been my experience, gets a lot wrong, and when no information is readily at hand makes things up. I do not have much use for him.
I like the new format.
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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2017 18:30:04 GMT
I have e-mailed whitehall military records office and await the outcome.
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Post by quincannon on May 15, 2017 18:39:04 GMT
Let me know.
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Post by yanmacca on May 15, 2017 19:04:59 GMT
Yes of course.
There were some units left off that new format, probable because no one has any info on them, but I have the unit types but I am afraid I have no unit numbers.
Royal Army Service Corps [RASC] Headquarters Divisional RASC 4 x Motorised Ammunition and Petroleum Supply Companies Motorised Park Company
Royal Army Medical Corps [RAMC] Field Ambulance Detachment Field Ambulance Field Ambulance Field Hygiene Section
Royal Military Police [RMP] Provost Company
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