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Post by yanmacca on Sept 23, 2019 15:25:24 GMT
My question would be how would Curley know the gray horses moved down MTC if he didn't see it? How would Martin be sent back 600 yards from MTF if Custer was not there? So typical of everything we look at.
Steve, when you went to the place which Curly stated he saw these events, did it give you a clear view of the length and bottom of MTC and maybe the river?
If Martini did get orders whist he was in MTC, then he could see the full length of the coulee and maybe the river too.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 23, 2019 16:00:00 GMT
Speaking only of the drawing Ian, it clearly shows Company E moving from Ford B to Battle Ridge. Why would they ever go directly from Ford B to Cemetery Ridge? That too was an insignificant piece of real estate at the time they were moving.
The two things about any Indian drawing that must be kept in mind is that they are not drawn to scale, and the person drawing had no idea of what the intentions of the leaders of those being drawn were. To whit: Drawing a company mounted on gray horses in MTC could mean they were heading for Ford B, or just as easily mean that they were flanking those Indians holding up the main column at the W.
Why would you find some shots fired from the saddle and some fired dismounted unusual. We are talking about dragoons here. I would find it rather odd if we were talking about Infantry or lancers or hussars, but not dragoons.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 23, 2019 19:50:51 GMT
I don’t find anything unusual about the companies firing from horseback and in skirmish line, we both know what a Dragoon is even though I am sure we had a discussion ages ago about the 7th cavalry and their inability to fire mounted, I am sure it was something that they never trained for.
I eluded to the cartridge case spacings to see if the terrain had an impact on their mode of fire, the W does look as if it is on broken country and on a slope too, so they found it easier to fire from the saddle. They changed to firing in skirmish when they reached the crest of Blummer as there is a line of finds right along its ridgeline.
I just checked that drawing again and the arrows go straight up to Custer’s men, which on the full version of the map, looks like Calhoun hill to me. But I said before that LSH had no significance at that point, so why should they go there!
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Post by quincannon on Sept 23, 2019 20:00:40 GMT
Your mention of evidence of firing both in the mounted and dismounted mode led me to believe that you were finding it unusual, while I found it to be something I would expect to possibly see.
I too remember the discussion about firing from horseback. People jump into the deep end of swimming too, and not all of them are trained to swim, or swim well. That does not mean that they don't still do it.
The drawing clearly shows Company E riding from Ford B to Battle Ridge, and specifically to the southern end of that ridge which is Calhoun Hill. I questioned you because you said in that post of yours a few hours ago that they went directly to Cemetery Ridge.
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colt45
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Post by colt45 on Sept 23, 2019 20:53:28 GMT
Yan, It's possible that 1 or more companies dismounted at the W to fire on the hostiles in the low ground east of the W, which accounts for the large number of cartridge cases, and while they were doing that, the gray horses could have been moving toward deep coulee to try and flank them, but before they could complete the flanking maneuver, they could have seen the hostiles leaving the area toward Calhoun Hill and/or seen hostiles at MTF massing in the village, and decided to move up hill toward BR as Steve's map shows. A messenger could also have been sent to the companies at the W to mount up and proceed toward the Calhoun Hill area. In this case the move toward BR would not have been a retreat nor a retrograde. Remember, we don't have any evidence of a fight at the ford so no need for a retreat or retrograde. This was probably just the flanking unit realizing they didn't have a need to flank the Indians from the W fight, so they continue on with the original plan of getting north of the village so all 5 companies could assault the village from that direction.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Sept 24, 2019 13:39:10 GMT
From the Indian sites on the artifact map their were position east and west of the running W. To the west the Indians sites are below the bluff edge of the Luce site. You have to move north to move toward those Indians. There is a current road running down to the NPS boundary and also a road running toward the Calhoun Area.
In the Indian drawing where could he have been to see what he draws. I think you can see gray horses easily from Curley side of MTC and higher up but from the Indian side either at within 600 yards or at Luce. If the gray horses went straight across then Curley and Martin would be wrong. For all we know the Indians drawing is the same movement down MTC but it could also be down where the current road runs to the Butler marker and to the T intersection on NC.
I think we can conclude that the Gray Horses were within 600 yards of the fords in the Ford B area. The route(s) they took to get there and leave is another of those LBH variables of opinions. I suspect the Indian map is a combination of what he saw and what others told him. I don't see any advantage to Curley in stating the gray horses turned down MTC and others went straight. Certainly the Cheyenne and Sioux did not give Curley that information. If Curley is right then Martins turn back location that he showed Benteen is consistent with Curley and crossing the drainage makes sense.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Sept 24, 2019 13:43:33 GMT
Here is the whole drawing.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Sept 24, 2019 13:50:38 GMT
I think it is interesting to the village location and how far it extends north. Also it shows the Cheyennes circling around CR. I think that is a good reason for Custer to stop his advance and begin to fall back the way they came. I think E was attempting to go back the way they came and went to far west and discovered Deep Gully and were met by Cheyennes coming from the ford at Deep Ravine.
Tom and I will be busy this June for sure.
Regards
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on Sept 25, 2019 12:02:16 GMT
I have walked the road from Benteen Reno defense position back to the battlefield. From the road I would be visible to the village as I passed the ford I think, and I wonder is that closer than the 600 yard figure. I have been trying to find an account of the Gray Horses being seen from the village, no luck yet, anyone got any candidates?
All the White Bear that I have seen (3 in Participants) are Sioux. Call me suspicious . Significant though that he does not show them going to the river. Well worth continuing this line of investigation. Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Sept 25, 2019 12:53:50 GMT
Mac
I don't think they went closer than 600 yards from the river. There are some accounts that small party went to look at the ford. The Sioux would be in greater numbers in MTC and valley areas. One group of Cheyennes and Sioux crossed at MTF. The vegetation and the elevation drop at the river in the riparian zone. So visibility would depend upon location.
I think 600 yards from the river is a safe distance from most firearms. If I had to chose I would like to shoot at those crossing a river toward me. You don't have to lead them and aim at the horse.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Sept 25, 2019 16:44:15 GMT
I don't believe it matters much if whomever it was that was maneuvering down there came within a literal six hundred yards from the ford or not. Could it have been 550 or 800? Sure. The point is someone was down there, and whatever Benteen said after his conversation with Martini was most likely an approximation of distance.
It has been a while since I have been there but I seem to remember the distance from the ford to the park road where it starts to bend into Deep Coulee is a fair bit of distance, but not more than three hundred yards I would say. Therefore if we place the maneuver route in question, whomever was maneuvering around the W as being somewhere between the park road and the ridge line to the east we are on safe ground, 600 yards exactly or not.
Before establishing anyone seeing that maneuvering unit we must first establish if anyone was looking. I have doubt if anyone was, taking into consideration all the other things that were going on at the time.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 25, 2019 20:01:25 GMT
Well most of the accounts I can recall off of my head, seemed say that the soldiers either never got to the river or they were stopped at the river, funny enough a lot of these mention the grey horses, but all these accounts could be linked with either Ford B or D, as the Indians don’t say much more, true, some of them say that they came down a gulley or dry gulch, but both fords have these types of land features right by them.
I guess that when some of these accounts were written, that the author simply wanted to get some sort of clarification from the Indian in question, then added them to his own opinion of what he thought happened, so if an author saw the Maguire map and took those trails to be true, then he could fit any Indian account he wanted to those trails and no one would be any of the wiser.
Bottom line, in author see a trail on a map, then an Indian told him that the soldiers came towards the river, via a ravine, then this would be enough for the author to claim that it was MTC and ford B, even though the Indian meant Crazy Horse ravine and Willys Bend.
100 years later and this is set in stone.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 25, 2019 20:59:12 GMT
I think there is merit to what you are saying Ian. Fifty years ago no one was saying anything about Ford D, because no one save the Indians had any knowledge of any action taking place there. The only ford talked about was B. It was not until someone(s) started paying attention to what the Indians said that Ford D ever came into play. It was then that people felt they had to bring some sort of action occurring at both places into the narrative.
There is absolutely no evidence that anything took place at B, nor was there any need for such action to take place. When you add to that the scheme of maneuver Custer used almost precludes such action then there is surely enough reason to dismiss anything happening there. Had Custer desired to go to B he would have taken one of two routes, following the park road, or more likely heading down one of the coulees that came off the bluffs to the east, then making a left turn into Medicine Tail Coulee and head directly to Ford B. We know he did not do that from the artifact placement at the W. Had Custer taken this latter route, and Wolf Tooth engaged him, the site of that engagement would have been in Medicine Tail Coulee itself and not east of it on the ridges.
The artifact field at the W is of fairly recent vintage, and none of the accounts by all of our conventional friends take it into account, or what is worse understand its significance.
Also, and maybe its because I know him, Mac is the only one to segregate the Sioux and Cheyenne accounts into two separate categories. When the Cheyenne talk ford you can almost take it as an article of faith that they are speaking of Ford D, while at the same time you must question anything a Sioux says about a ford, meaning that their mention of a ford is probably hearsay.
I read a lot about small unit combat, companies, platoons, and squads are the most interesting level for me. I dare say that for every soldier that took cover behind a manure pile, their view of the battle that surrounded them differed in some manner. Some are similar. Others differ widely. Some say this. Some saw that. Others did not see either this or that. That is the nature of ALL battlefield reporting. We cannot draw many if any conclusion from what they have to say, to the point where we can say this or that happened to the exclusion of all other possibilities, based upon one person's testimony.
A hundred years later and this is set in stone. I would phrase it locked in concrete, and that is a sad state of affairs brought on by lazy people who don't do their own research and analysis, and instead rely on what others before them have done. Shame on them. They have no business being taken seriously. They are all frauds, some more than others.
The study of Little Big Horn is a journey not a destination. and those who tell you otherwise, the ones who say they know what happened are both liars and fools. Were it a destination, and we all knew what happened, this board, nor the others would exist. We could buy one good book on the subject to satisfy our curiosity, and there would be a hell of a lot of Three Card Monte dealers, and guys who try to sell you Rolex watches out of the trunk of their car, looking for other ways to cheat you.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 26, 2019 9:21:14 GMT
Chuck I think the worst exponent of this so called "putting words in people's mouths", is "Staff Captain 2nd Class" Rini Keogh.
He and his yellow correction pen, have embellished so many Indian accounts over the years with his interpretation of what he thinks actually happened.
I know that some on his brown board, like the way he does this as it makes the account more cohesive, but in reality he is changing the account to suit his mind set.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 26, 2019 16:28:11 GMT
I do not believe that there is any standard with which you can determine "the worst"
All of them are "the worst" in their own individual ways. All of them are false prophets preaching a religion of either hatred of, or blind admiration for.
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