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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2017 17:18:59 GMT
I do not think enlisting and arming slaves could have been tolerated in the south. Never going to happen, despite whether it may have been a good idea or not. It was not political correctness, but a matter of practicality that prevented it.
As to Forrest. Men are normally judged on the sum total of the good and the bad they do in life. A hundred attaboys often overcome the one Oh Shit. Not in Forrest's case though. The Oh Shit was much too big, and its ramifications to extensive to ignore, then or today. That part of our history is best remembered as the model of what not to do, if you wish to live in a country where equality under the law, is a founding principle. Those that do not strive for that ideal, should find another dwelling place.
Long ago I swore an oath to the Constitution. I take it very seriously. It does not mean that I like everything contained in it, although I do. It means that now and forevermore I abide by its provisions, and the judicial interpretations of it. like them or not. It amazes me to see all those who get their shorts in a wringer about people who supposedly dishonor the flag for instance, when that is considered protected free speech under the very Constitution the flag represents. Do I like to see that? No. Do I, must I, respect their right to do it? Yes I must, if I am to honor my oath.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 15, 2017 17:50:53 GMT
I know that Oregon, Nevada and California were not really involved in the war but they had men who left to go east to volunteer for the army, and this left them undefended, so they raised some units to protect their states from Indian attacks.
1st Oregon Volunteer Cavalry Regiment 1st Oregon Volunteer Infantry Regiment Oregon Mountain Rangers 1st Battalion Nevada Volunteer Cavalry 1st Battalion Nevada Volunteer Infantry 1st Californian Volunteer Infantry Regiment
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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2017 18:12:30 GMT
So did Colorado Territory. Colorado Troops were also involved in fighting Confederates, most notably at Glorieta Pass near Santa Fe, New Mexico.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 15, 2017 21:30:52 GMT
There was nothing more frightening to the White South than a slave revolt and the idea of arming them would be considered suicidal. There were hundreds of slave revolts in America but Nat Turner's was in 1831 and fresh in the minds of the citizens.
Forrest was not a lovable person but still he was an effective fighter and leader who bedeviled the Federals and caused much angst to Sherman. He was a man of his times and in place when needed by the Confederates and he served the South well. I do not defend him but he was a classic pain in the ass to Sherman and others.
The decisions by those serving officers and men in the US Army and Navy to resign their positions and change allegiances is difficult for anyone to understand today. In the 1860's men held more loyalty to their states than to the Federal Government due to familial ties to family and neighbors. Washington D.C. was a distant place to any in the South and few knew anyone in New York or Wisconsin and held little affection for them over family and neighbors. The actions of Benteen, Thomas and Solomon Meredith and others caused many lost relationships with family and friends but they remained loyal to the Union. I am unable to judge the actions of all of these men and am glad it was not a decision I had to make. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Feb 15, 2017 23:46:01 GMT
Dave when you give a man a weapon, and say here, fight along side me, you are in fact making him your equal, That would never do in the south.
The fact that the Black man in the north was equal by law, and given a weapon he volunteered to carry and fight with did not make him equal in the eyes of his fellow men of the Caucasian Race, and would not for a very loooooooong time. You can legislate laws, rules, regulations, but you cannot legislate like and accept.
I don't give a rats ass if Forrest was lovable, neither am I. As far as his military abilities goes there were very few his equal, and not many better. Never questioned that. What I do question are his attitudes and after war activities. They were both reprehensible. So no matter how good the man was, the bad he did will always outweigh any good the man ever did, and will always be the first line in his obituary.
It is not difficult to understand, they all committed treason against the United States. Every damned person who served the Confederacy in any capacity. Those are the facts. No one can deny them.
Their reasons for doing so are completely immaterial to me, and immaterial to the times. Treason is treason.
Now for my softer side. I do understand that in that time more loyalty was felt to State and Family than to country. We were not yet a nation. That was adjudicated by blood and steel, and the side that committed treason lost. They were forgiven their trespasses, as we are instructed to do. Go and sin no more, are the words the priests use. Well brother, once forgiven, if you continue your wicked ways, and do not fully support the Constitution and laws of the land, then that person is in my view beyond redemption as an American. So when you mention trash like Forrest and Early, those are the views that first come to mind.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Feb 16, 2017 0:29:03 GMT
QC I wonder how many of history's most effective commanders were reprehensible creatures detested by all? More than beloved leaders such as Lee?
Forrest and Early may have been unlikable men but Early could not hold Forrest's horse! Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2017 3:00:27 GMT
A commander's first duty is to be a servant to those he commands. It is much the same way a priest or pastor must first be a servant to his flock.
I have known commanders, priests and pastors who instead of being servants sought instead to be served. People know the difference.
So the answer is none. Servant equals success. Being served means failure. Men can be successful in every walk of life, as long as they play by the rules, and abide by sound principles. Some who do though, also have a dark place within them that does not show up until a later time. Both of those men were sound commanders at one time. Forrest was throughout his military career. Early was a very decent brigade commander until het met Peter when he was appointed to division, then corps. It is what both did afterwards that made them despicable. Had none of that latter happened you and I would not be having this conversation. Both should have been hung for sedition. Every lynching, every church bombing, every act of discrimination, every denial of the right to vote, that occurred in the south, was either directly or indirectly tied to one of those two men. Hell hang the bastards twice.
I understand quite well what it means to lose a way of life. I understand what it means to lose your home, and nearly everting you once possessed. On a personal basis it happened to me when I got divorced. She got everything, save the clothes on my back, my books and a few personal possessions, and left me nearly 100 thousand in debt. I was still on active duty at the time drawing LTC pay, and I had to save up to buy a Big Mac. I did save the entirety of my retirement though and that is the deal I struck, but still I lost.
So I know what it must have been like in the south post ACW.
When you run into something like that on either a personal or regional basis though, you pick up the pieces, adjust to a new reality, resolve to not to repeat the mistakes of the past, and move on, building it bigger and better than it ever was before. What you do not do is pretend it never happened. Wise people in the south rebuilt their lives and their communities, revitalized their economy, and moved on, while others think it is still sometime before 1865, and that feeling is fostered to this day. I am a person of the south. My State, Virginia suffered more and longer than any other in the Confederacy. Yet today Virginia is alive and vibrant, full of promise, while other states still dip themselves in their own swill, thinking we won. No you didn't, the United States won, and you mister "state we won-we were right" are just a pimple on our backsides, and that being of your own doing
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 16, 2017 10:31:16 GMT
I cannot believe how coincidental this sounds but I watched a movie on an appropriately name TV channel called "Movies For Men" and the film was called "Revolt At Fort Laramie", the story line was about this garrison stuck out in a remote fort in Wyoming and the under strength company was made up of men from both the north and south, once news got to them about fort sumter the troops began to fight each other, anyway cut to the chase, the southern crew decided to march a hundred miles through Indian country to join the confederate army, but they are ambushed along the way by hostiles, they managed to get a rider back to the fort and the union soldiers rode out and join up with them, they both fight side by side until the Indians pull out, so then it's all back to brotherly love again, I sure that there is a message in it somewhere.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 16, 2017 10:43:02 GMT
Chuck, Dave,
Enough talking about evil and scoundrels. Once a long, long, time ago I did a paper regarding Confederate officers who recommitted to the Union in a big way. At the time I started with Mosby and ended up with 20, I am sure there are more. It was High School and I was only going to do so much. here are four who participated in the Span/AM war. Col Mathew C, Butler(CSA Cavalry), Fitzhugh Lee(R.E.'s nephew),Thomas Rosser(Custer's friend from West Point), Joseph Wheeler(Fighting Joe). I wish I still had the paper, one of my few A's!
By the way, and Chuck knows this 2 or 3 of the Maryland National Guard AG's were former Confederate officers.
Regards. Tom
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 16, 2017 11:04:25 GMT
By the way, a bit of trivia regarding Fitzhugh's children!
"With the help of his five brothers, Lee gradually expanded his family's commercial interests to include a gristmill, a fishing pier, and a stud farm. In April 1871 the thirty-five-year-old Lee married eighteen-year-old Ellen Bernard Fowle of Alexandria. The union produced seven children, five of whom reached maturity. As befit their father's military affiliation, the two surviving sons were commissioned into the 7th United States Cavalry; each of his daughters married officers in their brothers' regiment".
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2017 13:20:10 GMT
Henry Kyd Douglas was one of them Tom, the author of I Rode With Stonewall, a very good book. Can't recall the others.
Colonel Fitzhugh Lee was the regimental commander of the 7th Cavalry during the 50th Anniversary observance of LBH.
Yes Ian, there is a message, that being we are one country, but to keep it you must look to the future, not the past.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 16, 2017 15:06:44 GMT
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2017 17:15:24 GMT
Granted. It is also true that:
"Those who live in the past, instead of the present, while looking forward to the future are condemned to wallow in shit"
Chuckie
"Those that condone discrimination, hatred, bigotry, and the denial of lawful rights, or condone those that practice these things, should try being on the receiving end"
Chuckie again
"Those that hate, or condone hated by inaction, Monday through Saturday, and pray on Sunday, are seven times a fool in the sight of God"
Chuckie for the Trifecta
"The past is the place to learn from, not dwell in"
Chuckie for the Daily Double
"If I am not known to be a Christian by my deeds, my words will not help"
Saint Francis
"I am here Lord, Send me."
Jerimiah
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 16, 2017 22:23:54 GMT
"Those that condone discrimination, hatred, bigotry, and the denial of lawful rights, or condone those that practice these things, should try being on the receiving end"
Chuckie again
This was something I first experienced at age 11 when moving to Mississippi in 1960 but it has certainly turned around quite a bit since then. We have more elected Black officials than any state with a population of about 38% Black 59% White and 3% Hispanic and Asian and yet we are the most conservative state in the Union. Our citizens are working out our problems by talking and working with each other and not yelling. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Feb 16, 2017 23:48:58 GMT
And that is as it should be, for republican democracy is a continual work in progress.
When the south, indeed America, gets rid of the 1 millionth of one percent who make it bad for the other ninety nine percent plus we will be an even better place.
I am sure Tom remembers this guy.
In the mid 1950's there was a character in Arlington Virginia named George Lincoln Rockwell, who founded the American Nazi Party. He was a racist, a bigot, an anti-Semite, and at times Arlington took on the trappings of something thought to have ended 10 years before. He gloried in what he called the Fourth Reich. He was a nut case that attracted many followers, did a lot of damage, and his specter still haunts this country today. There are others just like him in your home town, and in every home town in America, including mine. They take advantage of free speech to sow hate amongst us. As long as the Confederacy is a tool they use, instead of being in the history books and museums, I will despise it, the thought of it, those who glory in it, until my dying day, and with my dying breath
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