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Post by royalwelsh on Feb 6, 2017 17:45:26 GMT
Dave,
Reno's battalion was defeated and in peril should any assault be made upon it alone.
Benteen knew the condition of Reno's command, but not of Custer's bigger 2 battalion command. Benteen would respond to a direct "SOS" from Custer, but not abandon Reno (of superior rank) whilst he ascertained the whereabouts and status of Custer. Benteen finds Custer, who is fine, and then has to explain why Reno (and McDougall/Mathey?) got massacred and wiped out in the meantime back at Reno Hill?
Takes us back to that sloppy written order from Cooke to Martini, raising more questions than providing answers.
RW
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2017 5:36:18 GMT
Realizing that a situation has changed, and using your best judgment to address that change is an act of moral courage. We, in our Army use the term OBE (Overcome By Events) to describe the situation Benteen faced. Anyone that understands what the term means will support Benteen's decision, leaving you to wonder what those who do not understand did in pre-school, for it is well below the level of kindergarten.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 7, 2017 11:54:22 GMT
The title of this thread is officers mistakes, one I have wondered about over the years, may have been committed by Benteen. Should have Benteen removed Weir from command of his company after his second stunt of taking off on his own? Or should he have at least dressed him down publically?
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 7, 2017 13:34:17 GMT
If we look at what Weir did himself I think his action was appropriate. I think with Reno focused on getting over the recent combat, regrouping, resting horses, and the wounded he ignored the obvious. Someone should be on the high point that gave the view of the Indian's locations.
That Edgerly left with the company and then was recalled back to Weir is an issue but it was created by lack of communication.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by dgfred on Feb 7, 2017 14:55:14 GMT
Benteen must have thought Weir had a decent idea... since he soon followed with the rest. Right?
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Feb 7, 2017 15:16:30 GMT
I will let the officers here answer that. I know that companies were permanent and battalions temporary. Just how much a company commander could do is beyond my pay grade.
Corporal USMC
Captain of Reserves
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 7, 2017 15:19:05 GMT
I know that Benteen was in charge but would having officers of the same rank in the same battalion be at fault, Benteen and weir were both captains and weir may have thought that benteen was his equel not his supperior.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 7, 2017 15:43:03 GMT
Seniority!
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Post by Beth on Feb 7, 2017 17:09:33 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2017 18:15:05 GMT
Benteen was lawfully appointed, buy the regimental commander, as battalion commander for that mission. Any officer subordinate to him had the obligation to obey any order he was given by him.
In theory, while seniority (date of rank) is important, the regimental commander could lawfully appoint a lower ranking officer to command a battalion, even the junior most second lieutenant, and any officer assigned to that battalion is under the legal obligation to obey the orders of that junior commander. Something like that is a once a century rarity, but it does happen, and when it does these is usually a good reason, but the force of law remains.
John Masters late of the 4th Gurkha Rifles, was placed in such a situation when Wingate died in a plane crash and Masters' boss Joe Lentaigne was appointed to replace him. Masters the Brigade Major of 111th Indian Infantry Brigade took over command of the brigade as directed by Lentaigne, and as such had battalion commanders (LTC's) subordinate to him.
Masters who is known for his novels in the 50's and 60's wrote a two volume autobiography "Bugles and the Tiger" and "The Road Past Mandalay". The story of this incident is contained in the latter. Those two books, by the way are alongside my Thomason's and are outstanding.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 7, 2017 20:27:05 GMT
Chuck you are a wealth of knowledge, I knew about the way they chose the commander by their promotion date, but putting a junior officer in command over more senior officers is new to me.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2017 20:48:43 GMT
Like I said Ian, it is not often done.
I recall another incident at Chipyong Ni where a First Lieutenant commanded a company, and was given a brand new to Korea Captain to break in, before that Captain himself was given a company of his own. Can't recall the names, but the story is in that Chipyong Ni book I mentioned as having read and thought good about a year ago.
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Post by royalwelsh on Feb 7, 2017 21:58:56 GMT
One of our British Prime Minister's once famously answered the problem with planning ahead - "events dear boy, events".
Benteen had ambiguous orders, both verbal and written, to put it mildly. He had to ascertain what had happened since he had moved off to the left, not just the condition of Reno and his defeated command. I suspect Benteen was happy to have Weir out from underneath his feet, although I have no evidence for this assertion.
Reno Hill is what happens when senior officers are not in the commander's thinking and decision making tactical loop.
RW
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 9, 2017 0:26:44 GMT
Chuck you are a wealth of knowledge, I knew about the way they chose the commander by their promotion date, but putting a junior officer in command over more senior officers is new to me. The OSS oftentimes had junior officers commanding more senior officers in operations. However, when upon regular base in regular unis., things returned to the norm. To this day we some of this goes on with our S.O.. Chuck can help me with the proper terminology, something to do with mission critical situations.
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Post by dgfred on Feb 9, 2017 0:56:27 GMT
Wonder how much Reno's earlier scout mission (with much of the regiment) worked on Custer's mind and maybe his upcoming decisions?
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