|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 21, 2017 19:50:32 GMT
Hi everyone, I have been thinking of starting this thread for a while, but because I am not ex-military I don’t want to step on people’s toes, as the thread does ask some questions about bad leadership.
Now the period of the battle I am referring to is Reno’s charge/breakout or whatever it was from the timber, to the return to Reno hill.
First off, Could Reno have done this withdrawal better? He had some good officers in his battalion and never really used their judgement in breaking out of the strangle hold. He basically said follow me.
Two, When Benteen met Reno and both battalions joined into one, do you think that no one really took control? Weir simply took no notice of any of his superiors and went off, not only that but his company followed him.
Three; When Reno and Benteen finally got their act together, do you think that it was all done in a slap-dash manner? The companies never really acted together and to me it looked like each one simply went towards Weir Peaks and choose their own ground. Then we have the withdrawal which was almost as Reno’s in the valley with each company pulling out without orders.
Four; Reno’s decision to drag the wounded men after the advanced companies was in my view, appalling, they should have stayed where they were and set up a base and treatment area, then water could have been brought up while the place was quiet and even defences thrown up.
Well there it is, and I am sorry for calling these officers out on points, as that afternoon probably seemed like hell.
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Jan 21, 2017 20:27:16 GMT
First off, Could Reno have done this withdrawal better? He had some good officers in his battalion and never really used their judgement in breaking out of the strangle hold. He basically said follow me. Ian, I appreciate your post in that it gives me another chance to ask a question that I never got an answer to. First.. In my opinion Reno took the best and possibly the only course of action left open to him which was a "Break Out" Now what you question was the way he did it. I think it boils down to what was lacking during this entire engagement, which was quick and accurate communication. During my time in the military, the radio operator stuck like glue to the C.O. so he could quickly communicate to all his units. In the Cavalry days the bugler was the equivalent of the radio man. Now here is my question. If the bugler was with Reno, where he should be, why didnt Reno use him to at least give a call for everyone to mount up. If he wasnt with Reno, why wasnt he. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 21, 2017 21:13:24 GMT
I wonder if the noise level in the Timber would have even allowed a trumpet to be heard?
Who was/were Reno's trumpeter(s) and did they leave behind any battle accounts?
Isn't one of the key factors of a breakout is not to telegraph it to the enemy?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2017 23:31:34 GMT
If it was a withdrawal he sure could have done it better. It was not a withdrawal. It was a breakout from encirclement, and he did it by the book ---- Hit at the perceived weak point and go as far as you can as fast as you can, for as long as necessary.
I know I am a complete bastard about these things, but words and terms have meaning. If you don't know what to properly call a certain type of operation how in the hell can you determine if it was right or wrong, done well or done poorly? A withdrawal is one thing done with a certain set of techniques concerning how it is conducted. A breakout as said above is a form of attack. It's pretty late in the game for this stuff to surface.
How do you know that no one took control? From the moment they met Reno was in command. He should have shot Weir as an example to others, I would have.
The fact that they did not act together in a seamless manner, is because they were not trained to do so. You need time to train together if you are going to operate together.
What would you have him do, leave the wounded behind. I am not sure the situation warranted a movement forward "to find Custer". I would not have done it under any circumstances. I would have let him find me. I would have set up a perimeter defense and not moved one goddamned inch. I was not in command. Reno was. It was his call, and from afar I will back his call.
A mistake is an error in judgment. There were errors made, but they were mostly due to the fact that the 7th United States Cavalry was different from a mob composed of rabble only in the fact they wore uniforms.
THE KEY FACTOR in conducting a breakout is that you do not advertise the fact you are going to conduct a breakout.
Trumpeters are not connected to an electronic network where you can direct your intention to a specific person, or a specific body of people. How many trumpeters were in those goddamned woods, at least five or six. Which one do you listen to?
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2017 1:36:32 GMT
Just a reminder, there will always be new people reading this thread so even though most of us are familiar with terms there might be someone new who isn't. Also these points have been *discussed* over several boards with various opinions so it is easy to understand how someone's head could swim with confusion. I know that my own brain sometimes gets overloaded with terms and I need to remind myself about the proper usage of what word when.
I would like to put a definition of Breakout, withdrawal, and retreat in the glossary so readers can understand the difference. Is rout also a military term?
I wonder why Weir wasn't tied up and put with the mules. (I'll stop short of shooting him. I've always kind of viewed it from my mom filter where a kid might convince one parent they have a permission that was never given and due to a general hubbub of confusion or even a matter of trust, didn't double check. Reno wouldn't have known about Weir's earlier incident while watering the horses so he might not have questioned when he saw Weir ride off. On the other hand Benteen might have assumed that Weir had orders or permission from Reno to ride on to what we now call Weir point.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2017 3:07:42 GMT
I believe I was the first one on any of these boards to say that Reno did not retreat from the timber, rather he broke out from the timber. When he reportedly said "That was a charge sir" he was 100 percent correct. He broke out of encirclement by attacking.
In a withdrawal - retreat - retrograde, whatever you wish to call it, there is a clearly defined rear, free of the enemy in which to withdraw to and through.
In a breakout from encirclement there is no rear. You are surrounded. In each direction you go the enemy is there. You in effect have to cut your way through the enemy to reach safety. You breakout from encirclement by attacking. ATTACK is what you are doing, and an attack differs from a withdrawal like apples differ from oranges.
Chosin is the classic breakout from encirclement in American History. They attacked from Yudam-ni to Hungham. The only difference between the 1st Marine Division's breakout from encirclement and Reno breakout is one of size of the forces engaged, expanded battle space, and distance traveled. Both the 1st MARDIV and Reno conducted a breakout in the exact same manner, by ATTACK - ATTACK - ATTACK.
No one has to like it. It is never pretty. Rarely does it achieve success. But goddamn it call it by its right name or you will never understand what happened, nor will you be able to evaluate it.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2017 3:22:51 GMT
I can honestly say I have learned more about BLBH from the knowledgeable posters on this message board than I could ever pick up from books. One of the first lesson I learned was the difference between a break out and a retreat. Unfortunately too many books use the word retreat either because of personal agenda or lack of understanding of the difference. I know when I first read Porters account of Reno says "That was a charge, sir" I thought Reno was deluded, now I understand it was a charge.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2017 4:05:59 GMT
The easiest way to sort all this out is that a breakout from encirclement is included in offensive operations, while a withdrawal-retreat-retrograde is covered under defensive operations.
My background as everyone knows by now is light Infantry. The light Infantryman expects to operate in the midst of the enemy. One of his primary methods is an attack by infiltration where you get in the enemy's midst before you call the first dance. The light Infantryman is no stranger to a breakout. An infiltration attack and a breakout have some very similar characteristics, and the light Infantryman must be aware that the possibility of having to break out is with him at all times
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 22, 2017 11:40:51 GMT
Chuck I hedged my bets in my first post and mention both charge and breakout, I was not going to fall foul of anymore misunderstandings as the old saying goes "once bitten twice shy".
Now I was under the illusion that Reno would have had three companies stretched along that Timber line and that not all the men heard the order, and seeing my commander being the first out of the blocks wouldn't give me confidence in him, sort of like a ships captain saying man the life boats and abandon ship, then being the first one in the first boat to leave.
But I may have been a little harsh on old Reno, have a look at these accounts;
Lt. Hare said he never heard any bugle calls, he then went on to say that he saw no Indians to his left and only scattered Indians to his right, these where between 50 and 100 yards away. He also says that the troops were formed up tight and ready to go on the bench.
Lt. Wallace said that the word was passed down to charge, so he gathered what men he could and when they cleared the wood he saw troops moving off in columns of fours at a gallop and the Indians were soon right behind and alongside them.
After hearing the order to mount up, Capt. Moylan said he ordered his men to mount up in the timber and then form up on the bench in a column of fours, M Company also formed up to his left and A to his right and then he saw Reno overlooking the the formation of his companies, Reno then asked Moylan for his opinion on where should they retreat to.
In his own words Moylan said;
We were not driven out of the timber, virtually driven, but not actually. It would have been driven into the timber in a very short time, but when we left the timber the command did not leave because it was driven out.
Can you understand what he means?
So the majority of the men moved out of the timber and had time to form into columns of fours before taking off.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2017 14:51:16 GMT
Perfectly. It was a deliberate move to attack the perceived weakest point of the encirclement.
They were forced to attack, because had they stayed they certainly would be destroyed.
When they moved Reno was right where he should have been, up front. After initial contact with the encircling ring, there must be someone up there who can see, and has the authority to take further action. Reno was the one who directed them into and across the river, and up onto the bluffs, based upon what he viewed as the Indians getting in front of his column, thus he turned to his left and across the river. His original intention was to probable go back to Ford A and cross. Only a commander who can see and act can make that decision, and he was in the proper place to do it.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Jan 22, 2017 15:11:21 GMT
I agree Chuck that you were the first that I read a post using the term breakout. I then look at my go to source to help me understand.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-20/Ch6.htm
Here is a portion scroll down until you reach:
Section III
BREAKOUT FROM ENCIRCLEMENT
A unit is considered encircled when it is surrounded by an enemy force that has blocked all ground routes of evacuation and reinforcement. On a nonlinear battlefield, battalion commanders must plan for the possibility of being encircled. Units can conduct a perimeter defense until they link up with another friendly unit or they can conduct a breakout. While conducting either offensive, defensive, or retrograde operations, a unit can become encircled. The enemy might or might not know it has encircled the unit. The chance of encirclement increases during airborne, air assault, infiltration, and strongpoint operations, and is planned for during stay-behind operations.
6-19. PURPOSE
A breakout from encirclement is conducted to allow the encircled force to regain freedom of movement, contact with friendly units, or both. A breakout can mean using a rupture force to attack to open a gap--penetrating outward--through the encircling forces; it can also mean using stealth and deception to exfiltrate through the enemy positions.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 22, 2017 15:44:08 GMT
I also think that when you are forced to initiate a breakout, then you know that you have overstayed your welcome and this is your last chance to either get out or die in situ.
That's why I personally think it's laughable, that anyone who is in charge of a cavalry formation would want to turn an area of soft cover into a citadel with only lightly armed troops and limited ammo, especially when heavily out numbered.
A cavalry formation is built around it's mobility and not it's ability to defend an area for any length of time.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jan 22, 2017 16:03:52 GMT
Going back to Reno holding a position rather than moving, I think it was a bad idea to move the wounded, plus the whole formation needed a breather as the packs too needed resting as much as men needed treatment, they had a water source close bye and could stock up in lull.
But I do think that they should have sent feelers out to find either Custer or to contact Terry.
When I mean find Custer, I mean follow his trail to see if he got clear, I think what Reno had in mind was to keep all the surviving companies together, but send out Varnum and Hare to see what was happening ahead, Reno did do this but Weir had already left by then.
But assembling a mounted force compiled out of the four companies not yet in combat would be a smart idea, even if they just screened the place, because at this point Reno and Benteen were being left alone, so using this quite period in their favour would allow them to see just what was going on, because if the Indians came back in the same strength as they previously did, they the cavalry could not out run them, not with wounded men, soldiers with no horses and tired pack animals.
Contrary to what I said in last post, about Cavalry not built for lengthy defense, I think that they had no choice but to defend Reno hill as they had too much of a handicap with wounded and so on, but they had their packs with food and ammo plus medical supplies, all they really needed was water and time to prepare some defense works, and leaving the beat up remains of Reno's battalion to do these task would give them a chance, whist the K,H,D, and B Companies formed a screen and the army scouts found out what was happening north of Weir Peaks.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2017 22:43:57 GMT
Going back to Reno holding a position rather than moving, I think it was a bad idea to move the wounded, plus the whole formation needed a breather as the packs too needed resting as much as men needed treatment, they had a water source close bye and could stock up in lull. But I do think that they should have sent feelers out to find either Custer or to contact Terry. When I mean find Custer, I mean follow his trail to see if he got clear, I think what Reno had in mind was to keep all the surviving companies together, but send out Varnum and Hare to see what was happening ahead, Reno did do this but Weir had already left by then. But assembling a mounted force compiled out of the four companies not yet in combat would be a smart idea, even if they just screened the place, because at this point Reno and Benteen were being left alone, so using this quite period in their favour would allow them to see just what was going on, because if the Indians came back in the same strength as they previously did, they the cavalry could not out run them, not with wounded men, soldiers with no horses and tired pack animals. Contrary to what I said in last post, about Cavalry not built for lengthy defense, I think that they had no choice but to defend Reno hill as they had too much of a handicap with wounded and so on, but they had their packs with food and ammo plus medical supplies, all they really needed was water and time to prepare some defense works, and leaving the beat up remains of Reno's battalion to do these task would give them a chance, whist the K,H,D, and B Companies formed a screen and the army scouts found out what was happening north of Weir Peaks. I am going to assume when you say Reno needed to hold a position we are now talking Reno Hill and not the valley? I think that sometimes it is lost on how fast some of these actions happened. Reno reaches the hill and is in shambles, he can't send feelers out then, he is just trying to figure out if the NA have followed them up the ravine, how many men he has, fight of any NA who DID follow them up and setting up defenses. Benteen comes along, helps Reno with all of the above while the petulant Weir is throwing hissy fits because he is afraid of missing all of the fun. Weir takes it on himself to take his company off to find Custer before the rest of the companies are ready to move or to decide if they should move. I am going to use Varnum's estimate that it was 1 1/2 hours from the time they arrived at Reno Hill from the valley until they headed to Weir Point, in that time they had to deal with a lot of things: Benteen's arrival, the packs arrival, stragglers, treating wounded, reorganizing themselves, fighting any NA in the area. Ninety minutes is not a lot of time in a situation involving high drama and confusion, even though it may seem like a lot of time if you are just sitting on your couch reading. Imagine setting a set a timer sometime then go involve yourself with something that takes a lot of concentration, physical actively, a number of people and confusion, like supervising a football team of teens who don't know a dandelion from a daffodil tearing up flower beds and replanting them in a different place. Make it minutes after they have won the game of a lifetime and ten minutes later have the rival team show up wanting blood and add a few rabid football parents to the mix. That 1.5 is going to go very quickly. If Weir hadn't forced the situation, then perhaps Reno would have had time to send out scouts to look for Custer and Terry but Weir's departure caused a situation that left too few people behind to protect the Reno Hill position. Reno would have been faced with the same situation we often discuss with Custer--to many small groups spread out over an area to rely on each other for defense. If the timing had been different with the NA already heading towards Reno's position because Custer was defeated, then perhaps it would have been wise to follow Custer's trail--I am sure someone with military experience would know better than I. At least that is my take on the situation--I would love to be enlightened on the areas I might be weak or mistaken in.
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Jan 23, 2017 1:27:24 GMT
When a unit has had the crap kicked out of it, it is going to take strong leadership to get it back together in a short time. That has to come from all the officers and NCOs that are available. It should have started with Reno, and been also started almost at the same time by the junior officers and NCOs. This goes back to training. The 7th was not trained to operate as a battalion or regiment. They were 12 companys brought together for the campaign, with no time for the individual companies to train together. Given all of that, the officers that survived did a reasonably good job of rallying their troops and keeping their own emotions pretty well in check.
Reno, I believe, was still somewhat in shock when Benteen appeared. That is not unexpected, but he was a combat vet so I don't think he stayed in shock too long. Benteen, however, in my opinion, saw the need to act and did so. Initially, he was in the best shape to assume a virtual command by doing what he knew needed doing and what he knew Reno would want done. This did not require any verbal orders from Reno. Benteen, a competent officer, acted as he should have, and attended to first things first.
Weir, on the other hand, as far as we know, acted on his own to go chasing after Custer, and due to that and poor communication, caused his whole company to follow. Chuck is quite correct when he says the whole unit should never have budged and inch, given their condition and the situation. The proper course of action was to send a small patrol out to ascertain the situation, both with hostiles in the direction of Custer, and the situation with Custer. By moving the whole unit, time to improve the defensive situation was lost, and that time could have been used to distribute all the ammo, acquire water, treat wounded more efficiently, organize the defensive plan, assign positions for men, etc.
The failing on the officers' parts was the decision to go ahead and follow Weir. That is a failing on Reno's part. He, as the commander on scene, should have not allowed that move.
|
|