Deep Ravine

[Beth]

(this is part of a conversation from the Ford D thread-rather than move the conversation-I am going to just copy and paste some of the relevant parts here in hopes to continue the coversation.


Beth: When I was searching about Ford B I found this "Probably the clearest white voice that denies bodies in the Deep Ravine came from eyewitness Lieutenant Charles F. Roe, who was there right after the battle, and whose job it was to return to the field in 1881, rebury the bodies on the ridge and place the stone monument above them. In a letter to Walter Camp in 1911, responding to Camp’s persistent, incorrect questions about bodies in the ravine, Roe finally said: “I put up the markers near the deep ravine you speak of. There never was twenty-eight dead men in the ravine, but near the head of said ravine, and only two or three in it.”

***

Ian:  Back to deep ravine, some say that Corporal Briody (F Coy) was found dead on a rise above deep ravine.



This shows how long this so called “south skirmish line” runs, it looks like on hell of a run, if that is what they did?

Link to Custer Apollo video

***

QC:  The story that Custer Apollo relates in that video clip defies belief for the rational and those of sound mind

***

Ian:  It does give a good lay out of the area in question, and near the point where they get to deep ravine you cannot even see LSH, so how the hell did they no where to run to.

***

Mac:  I was very struck when I visited the SSL and walked to Deep Ravine that you cannot see LSH, as you observed Ian.

At the start of the video he is at the cluster of markers that I mentioned earlier as being on the crest of the first hill you would climb if you ran south off Cemetery Ridge you can see this at the start of the video and then, shortly after, he points out Cemetery Ridge.

The line of escape then is simply away from Cemetery Ridge. From here you are running across the slope which is going to your right, coming down to the river. In a panic run you will naturally tend to run slowly down the slope as each step takes you a bit more to the right. That is why the line bends towards the river. They are not heading to Deep Ravine, it just gets in the way of their escape. This is why it does not surprise me that we have a report of bodies at the ravine rather than all in it. You probably live longer if you jump in and head towards the river, but not much longer.

Pity old Custer Apollo didn't film anything at Ford D.

Cheers



Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/406/custer-attacked-ford?page=72#ixzz4QgvF2gV0

[mac]

Good idea Beth!
Deep Ravine is an interesting sub-investigation.
I will add that the Benteen map, made only a few days after the event shows 28 bodies in a ravine in that position. 
Cheers

[Beth]

We need to bring a couple of that map over here:  I've also turned it on it's side for easier reading.

.

Attachments:

[Beth]

Another rotation so I can get it at how we usually see the battlefield






First question Is this an H or I.





On the side in the ledger, Benteen makes his H and I very different. If it is an I-where Keogh fell-then could that line be what we call SSL?

Second  




Note the two M's  and the line of bodies?  Where is this then?  It appears to be north of LSH.

[Beth]

Okay, I may have answered my own question by putting the image a viewer and just kept rotating and enlarging until I found where Keogh must be--which makes my first question's answer an H and I believe the note says is bodies of F company but it could be E as well. --Maybe it's just me but you can tell Benteen didn't learn map making at West Point---

[mac]

It takes some time to digest Beth.
He shows a ravine behind LSH (Cemetery Ravine) with a line of bodies in it. AZ and I have discussed it before and I discussed it with Fred Wagner too. The annotation suggests they were bodies not found or buried. I finally construed this to mean that they were not found, that is perhaps reported (maybe as a confusion with DR) but not found and thus not buried.
Phew !!
Cheers

[Beth]

Do you think that there could be another possibility? The map clearly shows that thee is a raised area--all those lines around LSH pointing toward the center but the line of bodies are in a flat area. Could he be referring to bodies in this area?  Benteen didn't really need to have symbols to show missing bodies, he was educated and could simply write 30 bodies missing--on the other hand to show that there were bodies in a certain area, he would probably want to use the same symbol he has used before. Plus adding the mention of a ravine--

Of course I have not been in the area and I know what may appear to be a ravine in an satellite shot is totally different in person.

[yanmacca]

Can anybody help me, I am sure that I read that they tried to retrieve some of the bodies out of deep ravine, they did this by using ropes to drag them out, but it became too gruesome.

As any one else ever read this?

[quincannon]

Deep is a relative term. All ravines are deep to some greater or lesser extent. What is deep today may not have been so in 1876, and by the same token what may be more shallow and wide today, may have been much deeper and more narrow back in that day.

I have no reason to believe that what Roe told Camp in the 1911 letter was anything but the unvarnished truth.

Just looking at the Custer Apollo video, I can tell you where my young squirrely ass would be in such circumstances, that being arrayed on the north lip of the ravine (Deep Ravine) shooting at the bastards that are trying to kill me coming across Cemetery Ravine from the north. In fact just about on line with that sign in the video. What I would expect to find after all had attained their eternal rewards were most bodies in line along the lip of the ravine, a few bodies in the bottom of the ravine, and a few (still in the ravine) that may have headed toward the river once the jig was up.

Camp notwithstanding KISS KISS KISS.

[Beth]

Just going by Custer Apollo's narrative-it just doesn't make sense yet I've read it before. Why if they were going to ride for help would they ride to Benteen and Reno? They have no idea if either group is alive or might be engaged in fighting and therefore can't come to your rescue? If you were going to make a Hail Mary pass for help with your last remaining horsed riders wouldn't it make more sense to head towards were you suspect Terry and Gibbon might be?

It also does not make sense that anyone would willingly enter Deep Ravine--it is a death trap. They might have been forced in and perhaps that is where the references to a buffalo hunt come from.

[quincannon]

The larger question is why did Custer attack on the 25th if he knew Terry was a day or more away. I don't recall the portion of Custer Apollo's drivel that you refer to Beth, but if Custer was going to get any help it would be from the south. Didn't matter though because none of those guys had the combat power to break through to Custer, Going south though as a direction of retreat made sense, but he did not take into consideration the fact that the hostiles had sufficiency and presence of mind to block his rear as well as being able to assault his front. Nothing will ever change the fact that Custer ventured too far, a place from which there was no turning back.

I would willingly enter Deep Ravine if someone was shooting at me. Danger is relative.

I think you are correct in the origin of the term buffalo hunt. It appears that both Company E and Company F broke at or near the same time, and both ran from where they were initially positioned to where the bulk of them were found. My opinion is that it was an "organized" run, simply because the bulk of each company were found in fairly close proximity, although in separate places.

[Beth]

Custer Apollo doesn't say they were looking for Terry, he says they headed something to the extent that they went into Deep Ravine to get to Reno and Benteen.

As for why Custer attacked a day early, I am sure if he lived he would have justified it as being necessary because he had been discovered.

I know that this is just a wild a** speculation but what if E didn't break at the end of the engagement. What if Custer went to Ford D saw that he couldn't ford it and realized that he needed to hurry Terry on so he dispatched E from Cemetery Ridge-perhaps the delay that is often mentioned since from one side of the ridge it might look like they where doing nothing but talking -From then turned back to move to a more defensive position-not knowing that the way back between himself and Reno/Benteen was now blocked.

Of course the weak point is why send a whole company I guess-other than there was a visible build up of NA in the area perhaps.

[deadwoodgultch]

Buffalo hunt? When I hear that term with regard to this battle, I think of the markers between the Keogh sector and LSH, or the Reno breakout/retreat. Those may be knee jerk reactions from seeing the markers and looking at the Reno sector after reading Wooden Leg(Marquis)even cavalry accounts.

[mac]

Freeman (as in Freeman map Custer attacked Ford D thread) recorded on his map that "7 is a ravine which toward the upper end is very steep and forms a pocket in which 28 bodies were found" the 7 is about at Deep Ravine! Remember that the ravine head was quite a bit closer to the river at the time.
The road has changed the erosion and deposition in the ravine, hence deeply buried bodies.
Cheers

[azranger]

Nov 22, 2016 2:30:20 GMT Beth said:

Another rotation so I can get it at how we usually see the battlefield






First question Is this an H or I.





On the side in the ledger, Benteen makes his H and I very different. If it is an I-where Keogh fell-then could that line be what we call SSL?

Second  




Note the two M's  and the line of bodies?  Where is this then?  It appears to be north of LSH.

I have been pointing that out for awhile. I asked Michael Donahue this summer what in his opinion it represented and he has not got back to me.

Seems like it well north of LSH and down BRE. There is so many triangles their for dead bodies it seems out of place.

Regards

AZ Ranger