|
Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2017 0:34:37 GMT
Not sure that I would trust Custer Overblog as that is the old Custerwest.org site. The owner of that site is a rampant Custerphile who evidently threatened people who disagreed with him. The moniker Benteeneast was a contrary response to Custerwest. Best, David I didn't realize that was Custerwest. I have heard of his legend. I found some of the history net articles problematic-a bit to sweeping and dismissive over a number of things. I had to check, the author who wrote The Mystery of E Troop: Custer's Gray Horse Company at the Little Bighorn
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 2, 2017 9:56:24 GMT
Didn't some one from the burial party say that they attempted to pull the bodies of these men from this ravine with ropes, but gave up because of the terrain and the decomposition of the corpse made it an impossible task.
I will search around in an effort to find the account.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 2, 2017 10:29:22 GMT
I found out some info written by a guy who reviewed Mincho’s book [the mystery of E troop], here is a snippet of the review;
In William O. Taylor's memoir he recalls an officer riding among the bodies on Calhoun Hill looking for the body of Lt. Sturgis, the son of the 7th's colonel. He was even feeling the hands of the corpses to see if they were soft and possibly the colonel's son. The desperation in this action is obvious. So I think that after it was realized that most of Sturgis's company was in Deep Ravine, all the bodies were carried out onto the ridge for closer inspection to try to identify Sturgis. It was a failure, but I think it would explain how markers #7-28 are in a rough line. #7-19 may have been laid out from the lower reaches of DR, while 20-28 from the upper.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 2, 2017 12:01:09 GMT
How about a blast from the past. A ghost speaking from the grave. In the proper thread. Given the descriptions of the original burials, any corpse in a water course covered by brush and some dirt probably didn't survive the first winter and spring drainage. Never mind wolves and else. Reduced to essentials, because no bodies were found in Deep Ravine, Michno wants them in Cemetery because it moves the soldiers somewhat north and aids the Ever On the Offensive Custer theory. Sorta. Something. The lack of evidence proves his point, don't you see. Dark Cloud copyright RL MacLeod darkcloud@darkendeavors.com www.darkendeavors.com www.boulderlout.com ".. all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed...." T.Jefferson, Declaration of Independence Read more: lbha.proboards.com/thread/946#ixzz4iqTJ2t2i
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2017 13:52:22 GMT
Who was the reviewer?
The words "So I think" is the reviewer thinking.
Did Taylor in the memoir say that the bodies were in Deep Ravine? If so - no problem at all. If not then the words - :all the bodies were pulled out onto the ridge for closer inspection" - is the reviewers opinion based on his preconceived idea that they were in fact in the ravine in the first place.
It has been a long time since I read Michoe's book. I no longer have it as it was borrowed, but I seem to recall that the basis of Michoe's theory was that the bodies of Company E were found in a ravine but it was not Deep Ravine, rather Cemetery Ravine which is immediately adjacent to it in the area the bodies were found, - thus the word Mystery in the book's title.
Michno's theory therefore in "Mystery" was that there was no mystery. I tend to think Michoe was correct.
The story of touching the hands is so Victorian that it smells to high heaven. Did it happen, possibly so, but it just might also be a cover your ass constructed narrative, to assure Sturgis and Mama Sturgis that every effort was made to recover their son's body.
I have no doubt Sturgis' body was recovered and remain there today. What I do not know is if the person or persons looking for it were looking in the right place. There is no evidence that Sturgis was with Company E when the majority of that company fell. None whatsoever. All this last showing that it would be a preconceived notion that someone would always be where you would expect to find him. In battle that just ain't so.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 2, 2017 20:09:25 GMT
The reviewer is among these; link
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2017 22:39:41 GMT
Just because something smells so Victorian doesn't mean it didn't happen however there is a bit of a class distinction with the theory that a young officer would have smooth hands . However that does sound like a story you would tell a grieving mother. However wasn't Sturgis the young officer whom they created a fake burial with is name on it when his mother visited or was that another young officer? The grief from that day must have been overwhelming for so many families. QC I have the Michno book upstairs but I'm pretty sure he believes in the Cemetery Ravine theory. It's too bad it's so expensive that both ravines couldn't be explored.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2017 22:42:24 GMT
Didn't some one from the burial party say that they attempted to pull the bodies of these men from this ravine with ropes, but gave up because of the terrain and the decomposition of the corpse made it an impossible task. I will search around in an effort to find the account. I know I've read that account as well. Perhaps in Philbrick's book? What the origin would be I am unsure though. Unfortunately I know that book is one that I still have packed it a box in the garage from the move from Idaho.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2017 23:10:28 GMT
I found we had two Deep Ravine threads. I've added Tom's latest comment in the older thread to this and closed the other but moved it to the Beyond 3411 area.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 3, 2017 0:05:03 GMT
So the guy that reviewed it is an on line reviewer. Just like you and I Ian. Just like you and Ian.
Absolutely Beth. It does not mean that the story about the hands was not the complete truth.
It is also true that all those people did back flips so that Mama and Daddy would think that all was well and sonny was lying at peace in his grave.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 3, 2017 0:32:10 GMT
So the guy that reviewed it is an on line reviewer. Just like you and I Ian. Just like you and Ian. Absolutely Beth. It does not mean that the story about the hands was not the complete truth. It is also true that all those people did back flips so that Mama and Daddy would think that all was well and sonny was lying at peace in his grave. At least for the officers. I'm not to sure when it came to the enlisted men. I think they did their best but they went above and beyond for officers. I do knowledge that the difference between how an officer was treated and the enlisted man was of very long standing.
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Jun 3, 2017 1:58:20 GMT
Beth It was Cemetery Ravine that Michno claimed in his book "The Mystery of E Troop: Custer's Gray Horse Company at the Little Bighorn". Sturgis was the one with the fake grave to ameliorate his mother's concerns. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 3, 2017 2:00:43 GMT
Sturgis, Beth, was an extraordinary case. He was the regimental commander's son.
In this modern era we go to very great pains to recover, identify, and treat remains with all the respect all of them deserve.
It pains me to say this but that was not always the case.
I can fully understand why the soldiers there detailed to that task would get it done, and get it done fast.
Every one of those soldiers dealing with those remains saw themselves laying there ripped apart. The restoration of moral, and therefore combat capability within that regiment depended upon get that job done proto. Were there shortcuts? You bet, and I fully understand it. Reno, or as some suggest Benteen, had one overriding interest - getting back to the business they were sent there to do.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 3, 2017 5:01:36 GMT
It had to be a horrible horrible thing to do, these were men they had shared so much with and to see bodies after being torn apart and the left in the hot sun for a couple days or so much have been beyond comprehension. I'm not surprised that even though I have only researched a couple of the companies that so many men died of the complications of alcoholism or suicide.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 3, 2017 9:48:58 GMT
Chuck if I read something that I personally have never seen before [even though I don't buy it], then I feel compelled to post it, if it turns out to be a load of tosh, then fair enough, but if things are written and they are relevant [like I thought my post about the reviewer] then it needs to posted. Hell, there could be plenty of people reading that review and believing that story by that guy, so lets see if it has some validity and this is the place to do it.
Beth, I wonder if the reason why they couldn't identify the enlisted men was because that the men from most of these companies never knew each other.
They previously started out on this campaign as a fragmented regiment which had been serving all over the shop.
Example, the five companies which went with Custer's battalion all died, except for a hand full of men detached to the packs, so really it was only these trooper packers who could identify their buddies, plus this was a big battlefield and if six men from C company were trying to find their friends, then it is no wonder the identification level was so low.
|
|