Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[quincannon]

If I could be transported back in time, only with the knowledge I have now, my bet would be on the Company I position being the location of the last of the last stands. I believe that is what I would see.

[quincannon]

I look at one site and you buzzards are talking about the Code. I come here and your talking about that vile shit my grandmother used to pass off as food.

I hope you know that as the challenged party El SwineO has the choice of weapons. Turnip Greens at twenty paces seems his style. My grandmothers turnip greens were lethal weapons.

Kinda pissed me off when he went after Will. No call for that.

I don't go over there all that much, so tell me has this character picked up the pace in the last week?

[BrevetorCoffin]

Jul 18, 2016 3:40:37 GMT quincannon said:

I look at one site and you buzzards are talking about the Code. I come here and your talking about that vile shit my grandmother used to pass off as food.

I hope you know that as the challenged party El SwineO has the choice of weapons. Turnip Greens at twenty paces seems his style. My grandmothers turnip greens were lethal weapons.

Kinda pissed me off when he went after Will. No call for that.

I don't go over there all that much, so tell me has this character picked up the pace in the last week?

He has but overall not a frequent poster. Making snide comments and brown nosing influential people on boards seem to be his game. Latched onto the village fool on LBHA then decided Fred as an author and influential on 2 boards made for better bootlicking. Before he was a gadfly fit to be ignored. Questioning a man of Will's status? Bona fide idiot in the troll ranks. This is all IMHO. No reflection on Fred intended in post about the character in question.

There is an old Loonie Tunes with a large and small dog and the small dog's big line is "Spike is my hero because he is so big and strong!" Think the small dog.
Best,

David

[azranger]

Jul 17, 2016 18:12:40 GMT quincannon said:

If you think the route is tactically viable, that is good enough for me.

I think it is and fits with Custer disappearing before Thompson and Watson top out.


What is the start and ending point shown on the scout's map?

Great question and I have worked hard to figure it out. I used various interview techniques to get the limited information I have and I would share that over a telephone.

If I am reading you correctly, and keep in mind I have neither route map nor have I ridden it, but I do know where the road is, how does this route square with the artifacts on L-N-C indicating some cavalry presence there?

Where the route hits MTC would leave all of the potential routes from their forward open. What it seems to me from riding SSR, Cedar Coulee, and the scout route is that the terrain on the other side determines where you would go. Some more obvious than others. So it is the deviation in the bottom of MTC in order to line up with the egress out of MTC that changes. The ridges and drainages on the other side of MTC are quite visible and the choice to maintain some cover and concealment along with travel corridor really limits the choices.

The cartridges from the same weapon found at both locations do not conclusively prove the hypothesis. They are only a strong indicator.

Agreed I consistent with allows for multiple theories.



You still need to know the internals of the C-I-L fight to determine who fell last. We do not have those internals, nor will we ever obtain them. The C-I-L fight very well could have been of a longer duration than we know. It is very possible that a carbine recovered there could have been used further north. It very well could have been from a Company L soldier who was cut off in some way from reaching the last stand position of Company I. The Indians that surrounded Company I and the other remnants overmatched that force, so there is nothing that would preclude an Indian picking up a carbine and moving north for more active involvement. All these things must be considered before any conclusion is reached.

I agree and the cartridge cases found at both locations can be used for several theories.

Now if there were several cartridges from several different Company L weapons found on BRE then it would be more conclusive. What you have now is cartridges from the same weapon, in the hands of a person unknown, being found at two different locations about a mile apart, and that is all you have, unless you have omitted some vital detail.  In addition there is no earthly idea present on how or when the weapon in question was obtained. If you knew that the first cartridge was found among those in a known cavalry skirmish line, and the second was found in a known Indian position, it would go a long way in answering some of those questions. Do you know where the first cartridge was found?

I am not sure of the total weapons identified. I could be more than one. The problem with insider information without all the details is what sells books.

I am only asking questions that could and should be asked by others when examining something outside the confines of convention. The answers given, and the consistency of these answers with the few things that are known will determine the viability of the theory.

I agree again. What it does is open the door to look at more than one scenario on how these artifacts got where they were found.

My basic questions would be what triggered the research to look at a potential difference in the flow of the battle. Some of the maps that Donahue had on the field trip were available to all of us and were confusing until you add in more movement to the north.

I like your comment on Wolf Tooth and believe he interfered with Custer's movement sufficient to make a difference.

Regards

Steve

[mac]

Military question.
If I am trying to make an orderly retreat back along my route after action at BRE.
I the amateur see two possibilities
1 Custer reverses and takes all he has to crash through back south. Clearly not represented here it would seem.
2 Custer sends L first followed by C to set up some control over MTC for the command to be able to follow on and force a passage south. Keogh follows to guard the gap that they passed going north to fascilitate the return and prevent warrior incursion through the gap (unsuccessfully it would seem). Custer then pauses to tidy up the wounded and then follow on.
If this is not military nonsense then it may place the participants in their locations including those found out of place from C,I,L.
If it is nonsense let me know and I will learn something .
Thoughts?
Cheers

[BrevetorCoffin]

Jul 18, 2016 12:34:16 GMT mac said:

Military question.
If I am trying to make an orderly retreat back along my route after action at BRE.
I the amateur see two possibilities
1 Custer reverses and takes all he has to crash through back south. Clearly not represented here it would seem.
2 Custer sends L first followed by C to set up some control over MTC for the command to be able to follow on and force a passage south. Keogh follows to guard the gap that they passed going north to fascilitate the return and prevent warrior incursion through the gap (unsuccessfully it would seem). Custer then pauses to tidy up the wounded and then follow on.
If this is not military nonsense then it may place the participants in their locations including those found out of place from C,I,L.
If it is nonsense let me know and I will learn something .
Thoughts?
Cheers

Mac, as always weel thought yhru but if there is a concerted effort to break thru ti south why did the 2 wings end up 1/2 mile apart?

[yanmacca]

Mac, number two sounds right to me, especially if we take into consideration what the Indians said, as they mention a pause on the cemetery position, this pause could be to regroup, check the wounded and plan their next move, they would have to defend this area during this pause and E Company looks like the unit detailed for this task as they were named by the Indians as the grey horse troop who formed a skirmish line and 28 were found not far from this location.

[azranger]

Jul 17, 2016 18:23:48 GMT yanmacca said:

Steve, what is this map? is it among the warrior maps in Donahue's book?

Hi Ian

It was found after the book and will appear in the next book.

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

Too early in the morning for heavy thinking.

Custer did not have any good options.

A conventional retrograde would be done by a process of reverse fire and maneuver. Fire is the predominating of the two, and it is fire that allows maneuver away by bounds. You must also have a clear rear. You cannot be firing to, then maneuver away from your front if there is no rear to maneuver into. Custer as we know did not have a rear to maneuver into. We know it, but I doubt if at the point of decision Custer knew it.

The second way is to peel off either the unengaged or the least engaged of your force to move rearward, with the intention of setting up a base of fire for the rest of your force to retreat upon with their support.

On a map, the graphics look nearly the same. The only way you can tell the difference is the distance they jump. the second method usually being a further distance than the former.

The real drawback to the second method is someone is always left holding the bag, with a high expectation of being overrun and destroyed.

One thing to note in the latter is that you don't stop to tidy up anything. If you have dead, and seriously wounded that cannot be moved, you leave them in place to their fate. I always get in trouble here when I say this, but your first responsibility is the preservation of combat power, and that means the living and whole are of more importance than the dead and near dead.

It appears using the scenario up for discussion that Custer tried the latter. Even that is supposition on my part. Of the three that left only one would do what would be expected of him, start to set up a base of fire. Had the other two left immediately following Company L and followed the same route (which may be in some doubt) you don't dilute combat power by trying to clear territory to the southwest, or cover any gap. You fight through if necessary to the new base of fire position, then expect the remaining two companies to do the same.

Had Custer had the situational awareness that was necessary his only real option was to stay in place with all five companies, consolidate his position by shrinking his perimeter, then fight it out. I do not think Custer had a clue what was waiting for him in Deep Coulee and vicinity. He probably should have guessed, but that is not my call.

[yanmacca]

Jul 18, 2016 13:03:04 GMT azranger said:

Jul 17, 2016 18:23:48 GMT yanmacca said:

Steve, what is this map? is it among the warrior maps in Donahue's book?

Hi Ian

It was found after the book and will appear in the next book.

Regards

Steve

I will forward to that book Steve as Donahue really does pack in the information, even now I still find data in his book "battle lines"

[yanmacca]

Jul 18, 2016 13:12:08 GMT quincannon said:

Too early in the morning for heavy thinking.

Too early indeed, I have already done five hours work and have another three this evening1

Back to the show;

I would expect that once any decision was made on cemetery hill, the whole of the eastern bank of the river would be alive with Indians, so any company riding across the basin to reach the next piece of high ground would subject to some kind of harassment.

If L Company was the first out of the traps, then their ride was probably the easiest, the ones that followed would feel a little more heat and that is why both of them went down so quick, as the Indians kept their distance from Calhoun because he arrived in good order and had more time set up his line.

Well anyway thats my take on it.

[quincannon]

Well the thing is they never got out of the trap. The three companies just moved from one side of it to the other.

My speculation, and that is all it is, is that all three companies took the same route south. I do not believe that contact in the north would have prevented that, not at that early stage. Further I think that all three both got away and traveled as coherent military units, separated possibly by a few minutes in time and the attendant space.

I have no idea what the orders given those three companies were, and where those orders would dictate they would stop. The logical place for me would be L-N-C, which would put me on high ground south of Ford B.

What seems apparent though is that they were stopped short of their objective, and Calhoun being the first to arrive tried to clear the area to his front by moving off the high ground of CH and down to its base to set up his initial skirmishing position.
.
Had Company C formed on Calhoun, to his immediate right that skirmishing position would have been stabilized for a time, and an orderly retrograde to the hilltop, I think would be quite possible. He did not do that but rather chose to find a new avenue south. In so doing he separated and diluted combat power.

Of the two following commanders, I think Keogh chose the correct course of action, in moving off the ridge to the east. We have no earthly idea how far south he went, but if we follow the scenario currently in play it looks like his intention was to shore up the left of Company L. There are two possibilities then if my assumption is true 1) He did move further south than we know, and was driven back to the place where the markers now stand, or, 2) He started that way and was stopped.

I DO NOT THINK THAT THE PRESENCE OF THE GAP PLAYED ANY PART IN WHAT HAPPENED. It is there. It probably was the water filter at then end of the Indian faucet. Both are given. Company I did not have the combat power to accomplish securing that gap, when you consider all the rest that was going on at the time. Combat power is achieved by the massing, not the dissipation of force.

If there is the potential that you will have to escape out of your married girlfriend's bedroom window,it is not wise to leave your pants in the living room, your belt in the den, and your shirt laying over the kitchen counter, regardless of your level of carnal lust at that particular moment.

[yanmacca]

I have done it again, sorry Chuck, this what I mean by first out of the traps;

[yanmacca]

Ok Chuck I get yeah, so by saying this are we ditching the notion of Keogh being a beacon for Benteen and rather he occupied this area to engage targets which had come up from deep coulee.

[yanmacca]

Steve, just what are you eluding to?

I used various interview techniques to get the limited information I have.

It sounds like the old phrase “ve haf vays of making you talk”