Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[quincannon]

Ian: As to your last sentence. Indians and horse larceny were not unknown to each other. Every cavalry horse still alive after the battle would be driven across the river, and be someone's battle trophy.

Going to Ford B is the last refuge of the Custer fan boy. In their minds if Custer does not go to Ford B, he has then abandoned Reno, and that does not compute nor will it do, him (Custer) being the wet dream of every American boy, and budding pretend dress up tactician.

I can claim that I just got out of bed, and sharing that bed with me, were 27 vestal virgins, 3 bottles of 25 year old Scotch, and my cat Missy. The first two are the same type of thing "some say" about, and alas only the third is true. Some say, claim, and postulate, anything that will support what they believe. The test is - does it make any sense.

Does it make any sense to go anywhere toward anything if you are already in a running gun battle? Does it make sense to call time out, and go down to Ford B in that circumstance? Does it make any sense to divide what you have? Does it make any sense to do anything other that push through Wolf Tooth's band (and there may have been others as well), and drive on to the apparent object of your affections (the Ford D area)? Don't think it does.

Deployment: I take JSIT very seriously, and over these last days have found a new appreciation of Harper. I believe that Custer was indeed trying to fight through Wolf Tooth, and was in a race against tie to reach the northernmost ford. I further believe that he was in two columns (2 and 3). I believe that when he got to the vicinity of D, (not sure where, but not feet wet) his lead column (2) was stopped by action, or possibly on its own accord. I guess that upon stopping he deployed both of his columns. I cannot guess what configuration that deployment took. What I can guess though is that at some early hour of this event he decided he had lost the race, and the only thing to do was head south, join Benteen or anyone he could find, and try something else. My guess is and my own experience comes into play here, that to do this he pulled out his least engaged first. My guess is that was Company L, followed by Companies C and I in that order. After that no one could pull out.

[mac]

Morning Chuck..I am going to bed...lacking all the gear you have with you .
Cheers

[quincannon]

Thompson, as I understand this, told his story in his declining years. I would be very impressed with Thompson, had he told this story the first time on the evening of 25 June to his fellow soldiers. Did he ever tell that story to anyone who survived the battle? Did he ever tell that story in the presence of Watson? Thompson was the last man to see Custer alive. Do you realize what that would do for you, had you lived in Thompson's time?

Same thing for Martini.

Now if you will all excuse me for a few moments, I have a poor waif of an Indian woman, a mere child I tell you, that needs rescuing from the depredations of one of my Crow Scouts near the ford that separates my kitchen from my dining room, no matter that the combined tribes of the Sioux and Cheyenne are at this moment breaking down both my front and back doors. Thompson is nonsense, and Martini would not know his ass from first base.

[yanmacca]

That is true Mac, I had a go on explaining this on an earlier post, when I suggested that once C ran to L and the survivors ran up hill to Keogh, that they saw Custer’s battle flag on LSH and headed for that location.

If we switch to F and E, then these two companies had to be operating on two separate locations, now some say that F Company were sent to the basin area to fire on hostiles which could have been driving a wedge between Custer and Keogh, E Company was on Cemetery hill and the HQ went to LSH.

Once E Company lost their horse and got driven to the river, this would force F Company to join up with the HQ on the slope of LSH.

[yanmacca]

Chuck and Mac, today is Saturday and I have no work to do, I also have the house to myself so I am going to do naff all until 6:30 when I will make dinner for me and my better half.

[quincannon]

Some say. Some can say anything they want.

It does not matter what the internals of the Companies E and F fight were. There is no understanding of what they did to be had, beyond the fact that they all died, north of, and separated by some distance from the other three. There is not enough evidence to make any kind of determination.

Back to Thompson and Martini for a moment. Has anyone besides myself ever conducted an in depth structured interview with a vet from a long bygone battle? By structured I mean asking previously conceived questions, regarding a battle event, not listening to a war story. All of us have done that. If you structure your questions correctly, what you will find out is just how little, not how much they will know about an event.

What you will find, I you ever do an interview like that, is you get the most useful information out of the ones who do not want to talk about what they experienced. You must explain to them why you are conducting the interview, then pry what you need out of them. The ones who are the most ready to talk are the ones that are almost useless to your intended purpose. 

[yanmacca]

I suppose if deep coulee is blocked and anyway north of cemetery hill is full of the enemy, plus both hooks had met on the eastern side battle ridge (the village was also a no go), then once these two battalions were separated into two then LSH and the Keogh sector were the the only options available.

[Beth]

I believe that Thompson related his story to other survivors at one of the reunions. No one believed him.

Personally I believe that Thompson believed he saw what he reported but that doesn't mean it actually happened.

Back when I was younger and just as stupid, I experienced a hallucination brought on by heat and sleep derivation--a week of working 12 hour night shifts followed by going straight after work to a horse show on a HOT summer day. By the time I headed home I had been up close to 60 hours and to add to my stupidity I had a drink with supper. I saw white deer with silver antlers and monks in white robes along the side of the road for miles. It was close to 40 years ago but I can still see them as clear as I did then. I could see how if someone had a similar experience and the hallucination fit close to what was the expected reality it would be hard not to believe it happened

[Beth]

This isn't about battle memories but there has been a study on 9/11 memories and the results are rather interesting. Memories are never locked in our brain and it's natural to confuse details over time. One of the weird things about Thompson that I've heard is that his account once it surfaced, never changed--I find that extremely interesting.


www.scientificamerican.com/article/911-memory-accuracy/

[yanmacca]

To throw another spanner in the works, a private John Kimm of E Company survived the battle due to being detached with the packs, but when he went to find the body of one of his friends (Corporal George Brown also of E Company), he noted that Custer had tried to cross the river at a point just below Custer hill, which does match some oral and map accounts given by the Indians.

[quincannon]

And to Private Kimm:

Where is Custer Hill Private Kimm?

After you identify Custer Hill for me Private Kimm, please identify the area that you are speaking of "just below Custer Hill"

Presumably you found Corporal Brown's body near the river Private Kimm, what in that leads you to believe that it was Custer's intention to cross the river?

Other than seeing bodies scattered all over the landscape Private Kimm, do you have any direct knowledge of what transpired in that place between the hours of 3:00 PM and 5:00 PM 25 June 1876?

Thank you for your time Private Kimm.

These are the specific questions I would ask, and was trained to ask, by civilian historians employed the Department of the Army, in conjunction with some of my duties in the past.

[BrevetorCoffin]

Jul 16, 2016 1:23:39 GMT quincannon said:

Could be, and there is nothing saying that those found on F-F Ridge did not go further, and were pushed back to F-F. That is one possibility.

The one I find most likely is that some scouts went down that way, but nothing on the order of a company or two. If you needed to see down there, you only need one pair of eyes, not forty to eighty.

David has a point about something occurring at a ford, but I think it all the more likely that it was not that ford.

The Malevolent Musketeer David needs a Ford B to validate his hero. Without Ford B his hero is not the Idol of American Youth, Conquer of the Western Plains, The Buckskin Buckaroo, The Legendary Hussar of Song and Story, just another dumb ass LTC that made a huge mistake. and the Musketeer looks like a stupid shit for believing all that crap.

That should tell you something vital concerning the Malevolent Musketeer's own tactical genius. Not going to Ford B was the only correct thing Custer did all day.

[

Thank you QC. I am aware that Count von B is so full of BS his eyes must be brown. North to South theory is highly plausible andI am one of these nuts who learns hands on or seeing/reading for myself.

Best,

David

[BrevetorCoffin]

Jul 17, 2016 9:24:30 GMT yanmacca said:

To throw another spanner in the works, a private John Kimm of E Company survived the battle due to being detached with the packs, but when he went to find the body of one of his friends (Corporal George Brown also of E Company), he noted that Custer had tried to cross the river at a point just below Custer hill, which does match some oral and map accounts given by the Indians.

Translation for USA participants: Spanner = Wrench

[yanmacca]

Chuck, the map drew by John Kimm was one of only a few that was drawn by an enlisted man and the earliest known map not drawn by an officer.

He also gives the area on which they found dead cavalry horses and this has been identified as being Blummer-Ney-Cartwright ridge, which was verified by Joe Blummer in the 1930s as he found horse skeleton’s in this location.

He gives no indication of Custer crossing at Ford B, but gives the area for a crossing point as a ford near deep ravine.

Apparently the Indians also said that a few men tried to make a crossing at a point north of Ford B.

[azranger]

Jul 16, 2016 12:21:24 GMT mac said:

Hi AZ.
I am not too confident with what either of those gentlemen say in this regard.
Cheers

 Hi Mac

I understand but both describe  a similar event and I don't see enough evidence to totally discount what they state.

Regards

Steve