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Post by yanmacca on Mar 14, 2019 11:58:35 GMT
I don’t know Chuck, but I would guess that five or six EMs may have been alongside the company officers, I say five or six because no one seems to know who was Porters orderly;
Captain Keogh 1st Lieutenant Porter 1st Sergeant Varden Trumpeter McGucker Trumpeter Patton Pvt. Korn, PVT Gustave (Keogh’s orderly) Pvt. Kelly (Keogh’s striker)
I think by this time, Keogh and everyone else knew that the Indians where watching them, just sending one or ten would not make any difference. But if this is true then Keogh was skirting the river for a possible crossing point.
I don’t know how close orderlies and commanders get, but Keogh’s company would have been aware of the roaming bands of hostiles which have been present since they reach MTC and a solo rider would be vulnerable especially one who had been by your side as an aid.
Anyway, enough of that and down to brass tacks.
So, if Keogh was going close to the river in an effort to cross, would that mean that he was the lead unit? If Keogh was detailed to cross the river, would these orders have come from Custer? We could be looking at some evidence of a Keogh battalion here, and Keogh's I plus C and L were the main strike unit with Custer E/F in reserve. A three-company attack makes more sense, especially if Custer was still not sure about what lay over the river. Having a two-company reserve sounds better than three companies a mile away on a ridge line and one approaching the river and another further back on some high ground.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Mar 14, 2019 14:52:03 GMT
When a soldiers says he has a fast horse maybe it also means they are a better rider also. Some soldiers stated they had never ridden that fast before. I am guessing there had to some sort of competition for fun to see who had the fastest horse. Corporal Foley also had fast horse. An incompetent rider might not ever let his horse go fast. So sending someone with fast horse to look at something would also include an observation of the riders ability. It was team with two brains.
Regards
Steve
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 1:19:59 GMT
Hi,
As much as I want to dismiss the 5 companies North of LSH you won't give up and keep providing compelling evidence, please stick with the NPS program😉
Elwood
"Oh, mother, people get run over by trucks every day. Why can't something like that happen to Uncle Elwood?"
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Post by quincannon on Mar 18, 2019 16:45:23 GMT
If the NPS scenario made any sense from a tactical perspective we probably would have long ago.
As it is the NPS scenario makes little to no sense from that same perspective, and we continue to search, speculate, and formulate a alternate scenario that does, and that fits into an agreed upon time frame.
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Post by yanmacca on Mar 18, 2019 19:43:49 GMT
Elwood, you have read about how large this village was, do you think that a unit of eighty soldiers would be any use after they passed LSH? E Company fought in skirmish on cemetery ridge, so why would this company, which was nealy 50% understrength, leave the main body and fight this action so far from Calhoun hill and FFR. Also do you think that a commander like Custer, would dilute his battalion and station them around battle ridge and then go on a sight seeing tour of the northern fords? If you haven't already, why don't you read what JSIT said in his account, an account forged through a afternoon on the battlefield with his step grandfather Wolftooth, who followed the Custer battalion from Nye to the battle ridge extensions. This account was not done through a translator, but by two Indians talking together, hell they even composed a map!
Add this map and account then also add what type of commander Custer was. Don't forget when Custer reached the northern end of MTC, he knew that there was a big fight going on in the valley, these soldiers were also his soldiers, all a part of the seventh, so this also would be at the back of his mind. So do you still think that he left Keogh sat on his ass with 120 men whilst he went off scouting with 80?
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 16, 2019 15:55:15 GMT
I don’t know how many of you have the Gordon Harper book, and how those who have it actually rates it, but he does have some interesting data on the move north. Harper states that Custer left Keogh with L-I-C, in or around Nye Cartwright-Luce area’s and he plus F & E progress north.
Now, for what reason’s Harper says that after a while, Keogh moves his battalion off the ridges, across deep coulee and onto battle ridge, maybe in an effort to link up Custer. Maybe things were getting too hot on the ridges and Indians could be seen to be heading after Custer, so he follows his trail to stop Custer being hit from behind, but I don’t know.
Now, enter Wolftooth. He states that he saw the soldiers heading down a coulee, so was this the Keogh move? That would mean that Custer had a head start on both Keogh and Wolftooth. Wolftooth, says nothing about another group of soldiers following him, which means that he had nothing behind him, which he would if he followed the first group [Custer].
Just a thought on an interesting and refreshing theory by Harper.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 16, 2019 18:44:25 GMT
One must step carefully in arguing a point made by Harper.
I see no reason why the Custer battalion moving north could not have two parts to it moving in the same general direction. I also find no fault in three companies coming up from behind, closing up on the two companies that were ahead to provide rear protection, especially with Wolf Tooth on the loose.
What I do find difficult is for those three companies stopping on the southern edge of Battle Ridge, which if their intention was to link up with the two companies ahead is a self defeating move. Stopping on the southern edge of Battle Ridge makes the gap between those two elements wider, and offers no protection.
So using tactical best practices, the trailing unit closes as rapidly as possible to both protect and reach battalion mass.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 16, 2019 18:57:39 GMT
Chuck, Harper has L-I-C moving all the way, well at least to Cemetery ridge. He writes that C Company was smashed around this area and not on FFR. How he comes to his conclusions is lost on me, but he was apparently working on this for years, so I wouldn't mind knowing his reasons behind this.
I joined these boards, just as Georgie packed it in, so I don't know how his mind worked, so maybe some older members can shed some light on his theories.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 16, 2019 20:40:17 GMT
I think they were smashed on Cemetery Ridge or there abouts too. Smashed that is as a cohesive whole company. Two reasons. T Custer was found up that way, and a couple of the early maps had "T. Custer's command" marked on them, sliding off the back side of Cementery and in the middle portion of the Cemetery Ravine Basin. That body was there for a reason, and those map makers also had a reason for that notation What you see on FFR are only about half of their strength, maybe a little more. If C was there you can bet your sweet ass that I and L were there too
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 18, 2020 13:39:37 GMT
It took about 5 months to come up with this follow on to two of your posts.
This clip is from "The Fighting Cheyennes" by George Bird Grinnell and wanted to share this quote with you.
"The different groups of soldiers moved about a little on the higher ground, some going toward the river and some away from it, and when the Indians charged from all sides the soldiers drew a little together. By this time three of the troop shad lost their horses, but four still had theirs. One company that had lost its horses was near where the road goes now, and the men, all on foot, were trying to work their way toward the gray-horse company on the hill half a mile from them. About half the men were without guns. They fought with six-shooters, close fighting — almost hand to hand — as they went up the hill."
For those who don't know the road referred to is the old road, as this book was published in 1915. The old road comes up from the ford D area, through the current housing area, continues past the "Old Stone House", and the cemetery to Last Stand Hill. The information above was given to Grinnell by White Shield, a Southern Cheyenne participant of the battle.
Any questions regarding the above I will endeavor to answer to answer. There is one obvious one.
Regards. Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 18, 2020 15:07:12 GMT
And the obvious one is that three and four equal seven. Very interesting, but I think it can be explained if you substitute the word group for troop, I think this pretty well describes what we have been saying her for a number of years. Five went north and were smacked in the nose.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Feb 18, 2020 16:33:04 GMT
You alluded to the most obvious question, so let's add HQ to the 5, that gives us 6. Now how do we get 7? You were a company commander at one time, did you ever divest yourself of a detail to scout, say to a river ford. Or, how many would you send to cover a flank as C company may have done below Calhoun. There a number of reasons, to as you say "a group" to send men to support another position or on a scout. Did a large number split and leave the cemetery to cover the lower environs around Deep Ravine. All logical, I think.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 18, 2020 20:20:40 GMT
Well answering the question that all five went north, which I think they did, why! because why would an aggressive commander suddenly turn passive in the middle of a combat zone with over 200 mounted troops while the rest of his regiment where committed or soon to be committed in battle, doesn’t make sense!
Tom, now I am not saying that Grinnell was wrong, but wouldn’t it be easy to see one group and then another group, and say a double group, and then be focused on the first group you saw only for the double group to split into two an then another group came into view? I guess that on terrain like this with companies taking different routes in ones and twos, which in turn could split, it would be hard to keep track on each group and five could easy become seven.
I have always thought that the HQ and maybe a forward detail, could be counted by the Indians as groups, if so then there is seven.
Ian
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Post by quincannon on Feb 18, 2020 20:57:52 GMT
I don't think anyone looking at this statement by White Shield could conclusively say that the headquarters element. probably no more than six or seven men, could be positively identified as one of the seven. I don't think that possibility can be discounted either. All we know is that if his statement is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, is that there were seven separate groups at some time during the fighting.
To answer your question Tom, Yes, I did send people away from my main body as a company commander. That is especially true when I was the lead rifle company in the battalion. My mentor, when he was my company commander, was an unimaginative sort of fellow. When he set out the order of march he seemed to know only one form - First, Second, Weapons, and Third (platoons). As I had First Platoon, I normally found myself out in front of the company. He insisted that I go out beyond doctrinal distance. He had his reasons, and I had specific instructions as to what would be expected of me. His reasoning was he wanted me to make contact, and stay, while the distance that separated us he used to great advantage as maneuver room. As a company commander later myself, I followed these same procedures, the ones he taught me. I think he once told me he learned it from his father in law, that's what I remember anyway.
What he wanted me to do was act more as a screen than an advanced guard. Quite often I would move squads abreast in column, meaning I was moving down a road or across an open area, with one squad reinforced by two machine gun teams and two anti-armor weapons in column, with the other two squads also in column on my right and left. That way we presented a much broader front, and the idea was upon contact, the base or middle squad would become the base of fire while the other two assaulted the enemy right and left flanks. So if White Shield saw my platoon moving in that fashion, he would conclude that he was seeing three separate groups
I fully believe though that what White Shield is describing is the start of tactical disintegration. I can see as many as six or seven groups before and early in the battle, but reading between White Shield's lines, I think he is talking more of the play's second act. What he sees when he comes on the scene, which is the unity of the battalion starting to break up.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 19, 2020 17:51:56 GMT
Another possibility that I did not mention is that a couple of these groups could have been horse holders. It is interesting to note that White Shield mentions dismounted soldiers making their way up the hill toward the gray horses.
Here is where your knowledge of that area and Steve's will be necessary. Grinnell has this action taking place near the (old) road. That is nothing new or surprising to any of us in that the original Kellogg marker is along side that road. The mention of a "half a mile" though gives me some concern. How far is it from the old Kellogg marker to say, the stone house. Did not think it was half a mile, but maybe it is. Anyway, half a mile is much too far behind for dismounts of Company E to stash their horses. Perhaps then, Company E was still mounted, and these fellows who lost their horses, or at least did not have them with them, belonged to someone else
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