A couple of old gems

[yanmacca]

I managed to get hold of a couple of old war films, nothing new about that I hear you cry, but these are not just your everyday war films because these used real soldiers instead of actors, who actually fought in the engagements. One is set during WW2 and the other Korea, in the case of the WW2 film it depicts the British at the battle of Arnhem and because it was made a year after the war, all the men, tanks and bomb damaged buildings were genuine as they filmed on locations used during the actual battle, all before they cleaned and rebuilt the place.

link

link

[yanmacca]

I hope this plays;

link

[yanmacca]

I am glad it played Beth, as I recall having problems with film clips before.

Swines those Tiger tanks, good job they only made 1.354 of them.
Those British Sherman Firefly's had the capability of knocking them out at a 1000 yards, thanks to the excellent 17 pounder gun.

[dave]

Yan

As you are the go to guy for WW II armor and weapons may I ask a possible foolish question?
OK it is a foolish question.


Since the German 88 mm was so deadly and effective why didn't the Allies create their own 88 mm and use it instead of the 17 pounder, 75 mm or 76 mm to arm the Sherman and Churchill tanks?
Regards
Dave

[yanmacca]

Well Dave that is the crux mate. The German 88mm was an anti-aircraft gun which could fire a high velocity AP round and because it was an AA gun it had a high rate of fire. The British had a similar gun in the 3.7in anti-aircraft gun, it too fired an AP round, but we thought that using these valuable AA guns in the AT role was a waste as they were slow to set up and had a high silhouette, so we never issued them with AP rounds.

Having said that we thought that the 17 pounder could do the job better as it was made for that role and it was deadly as not all German tanks were Tigers or even Panthers, so it had no problem in slicing through the armour of Mk IIIs, Mk IVs and the various assault guns.

Your own army had a similar weapon in the 90mm anti-aircraft gun, now this was similar to the 88mm and 3.7in, but unlike us you had no bones in issuing it with AP rounds, but this was only used in an emergency and the American doctrine of fighting a tank with another tank or tank destroyer was the norm.

I Don't think the Churchill tank could take a gun any larger then 75mm, something to do with the turret ring as it would require a larger turret, when we mounted the 17 pounder in the Sherman we had to omit one of the crew and change the lay out.

[yanmacca]

Here is some info on the five main anti-aircraft guns that were used during WW2, they are almost the same calibre and are very similar in stats.

QF 3.7in (Britain)
AP: MK.V Armoured Piercing Round
Muzzle Velocity: 793 m/s
Armour Penetration: 113mm @ 1000m @ 30°
Weight: 12.6 kg

88mm Flak 36 (Germany)
PzGr.39 APCBC
Muzzle Velocity: 930 m/s
Armour Penetration: 100mm @ 1000m @ 30°
Weight: 10.20 kg

90mm M2 (USA)
M77 APHECBC
Muzzle Velocity: 853 m/s
Armour Penetration: 108mm @ 1000m @ 30°
Weight: 10.91 kg

85mm M1939 (USSR)
BR-365 AP
Muzzle Velocity: 792 m/s
Armour Penetration: 91mm @ 1000m @ 30°
Weight: 9.2 kg

90mm Modello 41 (Italy)
R40 AP
Muzzle Velocity: 850 m/s
Armour Penetration: 90mm @ 1000m @ 30°
Weight: 11.8 kg

I got all this info from a site called Quatermaster Section and I don't know who the guy is who runs the place, but he is very good.

[yanmacca]

Chuck, here is one to look out for;

link

[yanmacca]

Last Friday revived a copy of an ACW movie called Andersonville for my birthday, has anyone ever heard of it?

[BrevetorCoffin]

Aug 3, 2016 19:31:31 GMT yanmacca said:

Last Friday revived a copy of an ACW movie called Andersonville for my birthday, has anyone ever heard of it?

Heard of it, never saw it. I know that it is about Union prisoners incarcerated at the Confederate POW camp in Andersonville GA. Conditions were evidently horrendous!

[dave]

Yan
It is a fairly good film about a terrible period and subject. Camp Sumter, Andersonville Prison, was a place of death! The South did not have the food, medical supplies, facilities or resources to properly care for the large number of Federal prisoners. I make no excuses for this disaster but Grant's decision to end the prisoner exchanges after the Confederacy refused to acknowledge the soldier status of Blacks and treat them as prisoners of war instead of being considered run away slaves.

The movie also covers the Union soldiers taking over control of the camp within the prison and setting up a judicial process that included 6 executions. This was an actual event that was approved by Confederate authorities which certainly shows how out of control this prison was. The camp commandant was one of the two Confederate war criminals tried and executed after the war by the United States for his actions.
Regards
Dave

[BrevetorCoffin]

Aug 5, 2016 0:29:27 GMT dave said:

Yan
It is a fairly good film about a terrible period and subject. Camp Sumter, Andersonville Prison, was a place of death! The South did not have the food, medical supplies, facilities or resources to properly care for the large number of Federal prisoners. I make no excuses for this disaster but Grant's decision to end the prisoner exchanges after the Confederacy refused to acknowledge the soldier status of Blacks and treat them as prisoners of war instead of being considered run away slaves.

The movie also covers the Union soldiers taking over control of the camp within the prison and setting up a judicial process that included 6 executions. This was an actual event that was approved by Confederate authorities which certainly shows how out of control this prison was. The camp commandant was one of the two Confederate war criminals tried and executed after the war by the United States for his actions.
Regards
Dave

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the commandant of Libby Prison the other war criminal executed? I also had not known that Confederates refusal to consider black troops as POW's was part of the issue. I had read (do nor remember where) that ending parole was a strategic maneuver in that a war of attrition favored the North and it was a move to deprive the South of soldiers.

Best,

David

[Beth]

It seems unlikely. He died in 1900 after becoming a dentist.

Find a Grave Link

[yanmacca]

Thanks you guys, well I have a full week off work to watch not only Andesonville but five episodes of Texas Rising, I just hope that TR is good and not a boring turkey.

[dave]

Champ Ferguson was the other Confederate War Criminal. He was tried and executed in October of 1865 amid the hate and destructive aftermath of the War. Ferguson was a guerrilla leader---in East Tennessee an area of hard warfare just as vicious as took place in Missouri---who personally executed prisoners of war as well as condoning the killing of civilians. The Federals captured him as soon as they could find him after the War and quickly issued judgement of hanging. He was unrepentant to the end.
Regards
Dave

PS I did not mean to leave Ferguson out of my post the other day but got sidetracked and forgot. I am sorry.

[quincannon]

Ian: Save your eyes and throw Texas Rising in the trash where it belongs. It makes Alice in Wonderland and the Tales of Pooh Corner seem like serious history when you compare them.

I can't wait to see the old Drum as an I Boat. Yes, on second thought, I can wait.

My feeling are very strong about how McVey was treated by the Navy, and in particular King, who demanded he be court martialed. It was not the court martial so much as the panel refusing to take into serious consideration the testimony of the IJN sub captain who testified that McVey acted correctly in all respects.

I am not one who holds that the shame of the court martial decision led to McVey suicide though. I think it was more the burden on self imposed guilt for losing so many of his men. These things are not unknown in the after years of combat where those memories never go away.