dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 23, 2016 0:52:45 GMT
America lost another jewel from her crown today with the death of Retired Staff Sgt. David Jonathan Thatcher. Thatcher was one of the last two members of Doolittle's Raiders. LTC Richard Cole the last survivor was COL Jimmy Doolittle's co-pilot.
I always wonder if we will have such heroes again but somehow we always do and Thank God for them all.
Regards Dave
missoulian.com/news/local/missoula-s-doolittle-raider-dead-at/article_02082abc-d078-5936-9111-3d6dc21192c0.html
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Post by Beth on Jun 23, 2016 1:15:05 GMT
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 23, 2016 1:31:33 GMT
Beth Very appropriate post! Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 23, 2016 4:42:29 GMT
Thatcher was the gunner/flight engineer on the Ruptured Duck, the centerpiece aircraft in Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo. They will be breaking open the case at the AFA shortly I expect for Cole to toast his comrades.
Now to reality, and taking nothing away from those involved.
It was a stupid bone headed publicity stunt pushed by Roosevelt, and his military leaders lacked the backbone to tell the President it was a crazy stupid thing to do. The consequences very well could have been catastrophic. Putting two carriers at that grave a risk at that stage of the war bordered on the criminal. Had we lost one due to any cause, including mechanical breakdown, there would have been no Midway or Coral Sea. Had we lost both, the length of the war would have been extended a year and a half to two.
Can you imagine Guadalcanal delayed until January of 1944? Can you imagine what Tarawa would have been like with two more years to prepare defenses and stockpile supplies? How many more lives would have been expended. When you applaud the daring deeds of heroes (Oh how I hate that word) you had better damned well consider all of the consequences, not just the potential we got them back headline in the New York Times.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 23, 2016 12:08:34 GMT
I think that the leaders of all countries make some rash decisions, just look at WW2 and the Dieppe and St Nazaire fiascos.
But in time of war brave men die doing brave things, and Operation Frankton is a classic example. BTW: some of these brave men were betrayed by the French and were shot along with most of the others.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 23, 2016 13:02:46 GMT
Agreed in principle. I am not against high risk operations IF AND ONLY IF the risk is worth the reward. The Doolittle risk far exceeded and possible reward.
We had five carriers in the Pacific at the time. Saratoga had a great big hole in her bottom, and would not be operational until August. Yorktown and Lexington were guarding the San Francisco to Australia life line, that both sustained Australia to some extent and supplied MacArthur in his effort to build up combat power to initially defend Australia, New Guinea, and New Zealand, then later to go over to the offensive.
Hornet and Enterprise were the only thing we had in the Central Pacific, and because of the raid requirement Hornet was non-operational, which left about 18 fighters to defend our only naval power in that part of the theater. While they were off on their jaunt, what naval power defended or blocked a threat to Hawaii? None that I know of. What would happen if Kido Butai showed up instead of a fishing boat? We did not even know where they were when we started that raid.
It was true that we had two more carriers in the Atlantic, but one was off delivering Spitfires to Malta, and the other was so slow that it could not get out of its own way, and was barely adequate for training duties. Ranger did venture forth a couple of times during the war, but never when there was any naval opposition or large air threat about. Beautiful ship in my view, but as combat useless as Little Miss Muffet's tuffit.
So you evaluate the situation and determine if you would risk the only thing that stood between you and speaking Japanese for what was essentially a publicity stunt. If you read the private papers of some of these people after the war, most of them thought it was nuts, and the only ones that thought well of the whole venture were the Captain Pretend types who insist that supporting distance is three miles, and doing everything the wrong way is the right way to fame and glory.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 23, 2016 13:31:55 GMT
I suppose though that the powers that be thought that the USA needed a boost after Pearl Harbour. In 1941 Churchill ordered that the 238 brand new tanks that had just been delivered by the tiger convoy, be sent into action immediately, which gave the new crews only five days training, the idea behind this was not only to strike before Rommel got too strong but also to give the British people something to cheer about, but of course the attack was a disaster and it cost over 90 tanks and Wavell his job.
So I think that this decision to go ahead with the Doolittle raid would be more on the lines to give the American people something to cheer about, but I also agree with you that the loss of any carriers would had been a major setback, but they must have deem it a risk worth taking, as the tiger convoy had to travel the short rout through the Mediterranean so it could deliver its precious cargo on time.
So Churchill too must have deemed it a risk worth taking, at worse this convoy could have been shot up, torpedoed and sunk by enemy aircraft and subs, and in 1941 the last thing we needed was the loss of these ships.
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Post by Beth on Jun 23, 2016 16:23:08 GMT
I'm not sure if the Doolittle raid was meant so much to boast American morale or to tell Japan--especially the non military population that they might live on an island but they were not invulnerable.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 23, 2016 17:53:56 GMT
Send them a telegram not two out of the only four carriers you have in the Pacific, with only one of them being combat capable.
It is hard to sell the risk and reward aspect to folks that have been raised on the adventure, daring, and heroism of it all, but it's your own damned fault. You paid me to think that way for twenty six years - for you - only you can determine if you got your monies worth.
Ian comparing the Tiger operation, and for that matter the Malta reinforcement to the Doolittle Raid is like comparing apples to cow poop. The first two were completely worthy of the risk for the sustainment of your 8th Army, the latter was a publicity stunt thought up by a person who in many ways was a naval wantabee.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 23, 2016 19:10:57 GMT
We honor the fliers who put their butts on the line for the politicians and military leaders who still smarted over the Pearl Harbor raid.
The first book I ever bought was 30 Seconds Over Tokyo in 1956, I think, for 50 cents. I still have th e book and reread it every couple of years. Started reading it again last night in honor of Mr. Thatcher and the others. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 23, 2016 20:41:31 GMT
Unless the personnel who volunteered for that hair brained stunt were the ones who thought it up, and they were not, then what they did should be honored. It is the thinker uppers that were the idiots, not the executors.
We lose ourselves in the event, and lose sight of potential consequences.
We lost ourselves in the events of 9/11, then lost sight of the consequences of the invasion of Iraq for no possible earthly reason of responsibility for that event, and Afghanistan, which in itself had no part to play either. People, non state actors, did that to us, and instead of focusing on killing those bastards, we tried to remake the world. We have found out the hard way, blood and treasure, that we took the wrong road, and the risk we took was for no possible reward gained, and those same bastards are still striking us where we live, because we chose to play in the Super Bowl rather in the longer, and more secretive world, of focus, finding, and killing. It sure made up feel good though, just like the Doolittle Raid, but the question is how are you feeling about it now?
Please don't anyone say that ISIS is our own fault. Had we not left Iraq blah, blah, blah. Rather review the status of forces agreement between Iraq and the US, and signed by the previous president. Would you have us add to our stupidity by breaking our word concerning a document that has the same international force as that of a treaty.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 23, 2016 21:05:46 GMT
I fully agree with you Chuck, I think that groups like ISIS don’t need any excuse to declare war on the west and other faiths as their goal is to make the whole world on big caliphate and destroy other religions and the principles of freedom.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 23, 2016 22:21:26 GMT
FREEDOM: I was going to post this to you Ian on the private thread, but here is good enough.
It is not important if the efforts in the UK to leave the EU pass or fail. What IS important is the fact that the people of the UK had the opportunity to decide the issue for themselves, and that whichever side wins the majority determines the outcome.
In a nutshell that is what separates us from this bad smelling group of shitheads who screw donkeys and think that is the normal course of things, and that is why they hate us.
The good news is that over time they will fall of their own weight, as that world wide tying together that I spoke of in the private thread strangles them to death with the noose of rising, and undelivered, expectations.
We are going to win even if we do nothing. It's much more satisfying to kill them in their bedrooms and kitchen tables though where they are still convinced that we can't get at them.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 23, 2016 23:10:33 GMT
Send them a telegram not two out of the only four carriers you have in the Pacific, with only one of them being combat capable. It is hard to sell the risk and reward aspect to folks that have been raised on the adventure, daring, and heroism of it all, but it's your own damned fault. You paid me to think that way for twenty six years - for you - only you can determine if you got your monies worth. Ian comparing the Tiger operation, and for that matter the Malta reinforcement to the Doolittle Raid is like comparing apples to cow poop. The first two were completely worthy of the risk for the sustainment of your 8th Army, the latter was a publicity stunt thought up by a person who in many ways was a naval wantabee. Agree on the publicity stunt aspect of the raid. Still have to honor 80 brave men who executed the raid, 18 of whom did not survive the war. I think there are 4 men left per the CNN articles..
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 23, 2016 23:12:09 GMT
We honor the fliers who put their butts on the line for the politicians and military leaders who still smarted over the Pearl Harbor raid. The first book I ever bought was 30 Seconds Over Tokyo in 1956, I think, for 50 cents. I still have th e book and reread it every couple of years. Started reading it again last night in honor of Mr. Thatcher and the others. Regards Dave Great book
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