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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2016 15:27:26 GMT
Chuck, apparently the third British assault was done in a different format which allowed for troops to be spaced out rather than in close ranks, a couple of battalions of riflemen in their green jackets would have been the order of the day along with other light infantry, plus didn't we have any high angled mortars or howitzers in which to land rounds straight on top of these fortifications?
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2016 15:39:12 GMT
Sometimes you wish old DC was still around. After all his diatribes about Indians not having any command and control you would just need to say four words in rebuttal --- Buffalo Hump's Great Raid. Keep in mind all those not familiar, the objectives of the raid were along the Gulf Coast of Texas, and they were launched from the Comanche stronghold of the Llano Estacado (near where Colt is from --- Amarillo). Also keep in mind that the Llano is nearer to me here in Colorado than it was to the raid's objectives. Just getting there alone required a high degree of C&C. If you dig around you will find lots of these really interesting battles, many of them are not as large as BLBH, Fetterman, or Rosebud, but some of them would make great little wargames as all you need would be some skirmish rules and 100-200 figures max. Set your you table based on any maps supplied on line and your laughing.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2016 15:46:42 GMT
I must put myself on report for saying that the Knox artillery train was already at Boston. It was not. The Continentals still had plenty of guns that could do the job required but the heavy guns brought by Knox from Fort Ti would not arrive until the winter.
Memory is not of great benefit from time to time.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2016 15:52:26 GMT
You should have had three weetabix this morning.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2016 15:55:17 GMT
IF a bullfrog had wings Ian it would not bump its ass. Sir John Moore was barely out of diapers when Bunker Hill was fought, and I doubt he would have conjured up riflemen for the occasion.
Mortar and howitzers? Don't know.
The Brits realized that the high ground around Boston had to be outposted or they were toast. They did not move as quickly as they should have, for in my mind that should have been first priority after Lexington and Concord. It's a large area, and perhaps they did not have enough in the way of resources. The Continentals were quick to cut Boston off from the south, and that very soon after L and C, but that was April and BH was in June. Seems a long time to realize the obvious and take action. We all, everyone of us pay for our mistakes, both of commission and omission.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2016 16:02:40 GMT
Got my dates wrong Chuck, so I also should have had three weetabix. Remember Sharpe's Regiment when they wanted to give him command of a battalion of foot in the Americas, they wanted him out of the way, well that was after 1807 and probably before the 1814 skirmish, so I should have checked my dates.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2016 16:23:17 GMT
I believe Rifle Regiments date from around 1800 in British service Ian. The basic concept though goes as far back as the Seven Years War, what we know as the French and Indian War.
I think Moore must have had a devil of a time convincing the British powers that be though to raise that capability from scouts and woodsmen into regular regimental status, giving the drawbacks of the rifle, that in some ways offset the advantages. Moore adapted tactics though into a more open order, and prevailed. Guys that do that often get a barracks named after them.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2016 16:33:17 GMT
Bet it was radical at the time Chuck, around that time the Prussian method was still all the rage, with slow methodical movement with formations taking an age to go from column to line or even square.
I wonder what was going through Custer’s mind at the Washita and his decision to organise an independent company of sharpshooters. This was good thinking on his behalf and I was impressed, but did he ever use a formation like this before or even after? And was it a standard practice in the US Army to syphon off your best shots in this way?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2016 18:26:30 GMT
Nothing happens in the United States Army without Department of the Army approval as it relates to organization.
A company of sharpshooters therefore is a load of bull shit
He may have identified his best shooters. He may have sponsored competitions, He may have done several things along those lines but I can guarantee you that he did not organize anything of the sort as a modification to the standard TO%E of the day.
Hell he could not even get authority to organize a band, and all those people when they were tootin, were not with their companies shootin.
Organization Ian in the U S Army is always a game of spaces and faces. If you are not authorized the spaces, then you can't fill the space with a face, without robbing some unit of people they need to adequately perform that units function.
Imagination with some authors runs rampant
There is a series of tables as an appendix to Garry Own In Glory that outlines every change in organization in the 7th Cavalry from its activation in 1866 until its inactivation as a tactical entity in 1957. General Order authorities are given. There is mention of the band being a separate authorization, and if I recall it is after Custer's time. There is no mention of this sharpshooter company crap, and as the tables are in such finite detail, I don't think something like that would be missed - do you.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 20, 2016 18:47:54 GMT
Chuck, it reminded me of how Napoleonic infantry regiments used to group all their Grenadier and Voltigeur companies to form a strike force, and using the French as an example, every battalion used to have company of Grenadiers and a company of Voltigeurs each regiment contained two battalions, which gave you a four company unit containing your best formations, each Grenadier Company had 90 men and each Voltigeur Company had 120 men (paper strength of course).
I thought that Custer would have known this and tried to emulate it in the field, similar to Lieutenant Chard in the movie “Zulu”, when he asked the colour sergeant for all his best bayonet men to form a reserve in case of breakthroughs.
So if he did implicate this company and it was commanded by Lt. Cook, then it must have been an adhoc unit.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2016 19:22:00 GMT
Ian: There was no such frigging company None, NADA.
It was common practice during the ACW on both sides to at brigade level form skirmishing parties. Thomason's hero, Captain Swan. in Lone Star Preacher was involved in this effort for the Texas Brigade. They were picked for their skills, but when they were not doing their skirmishing thing, even when in battle, they were with their units, and there was no special authorization for their existence.
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When you are talking the word COMPANY in the U S Army your are talking an authorized body of men under duly appointed officers, that has been authorized to perform a certain function on a permanent basis.
A commander does not go off organizing anything such as this without the approval of the Department of the Army. This may sound like small potatoes, but the sanction for doing something like this without prior approval, and that approval coming in the form of DA General Orders is an extended all expenses paid stay at one of our finer Federal penal institutions. In short it is a crime to expend Federal funds for any purpose not authorized by Congress. When you have the right you may spend with all your might.
Telling Cooke to take ten guys and shoot up the goddamned place does not a company make.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 21, 2016 12:21:20 GMT
Duly noted, that's why I said it could have been a adhoc unit* If this group ever existed, and I only came across it by accident, then if there was any truth in this story then it was formed on a whim by GAC and certainly not on regulation.
Adhoc* created or done for a particular purpose as necessary.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 21, 2016 12:54:38 GMT
Where have you ever read that Custer paid close attention to training troops? Such a unit, were it to exist would train from dawn to dusk, and eat up untold resources, to gain and maintain proficiency.
It is far more likely that this unit exists only in the mind of some "imaginative" author, a Philip Katcher type, who if he does not understand what his scant research tells him, makes something up to cover his own incompetence.
Adhoc, hell I don't know. What I do know is that exceptions to the organizational rule in those days were few and very far between, for the simple reasons that we could not afford them, and no one really saw any need.
The most likely explanation for all this was some people, chief among the Cooke, liked to get together for a little target shooting on their own time.
Always beware when the term elite or better yet crack troops is used. If they are truly elite as we define them, you would not know of their operations, or perhaps even their existence. As far as crack goes, most so described could not find the crack in their ass, using both hands and a magnifying glass.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 21, 2016 13:01:33 GMT
All of the above is good reading, however I must get back to my laundry, here at the campground. Keep up the good work you two. Will be back soon too catch up.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 21, 2016 13:04:28 GMT
Chuck I do not write this stuff, but it is all over the net, look here it is again (and don't blame me, as I am only the messenger);
In the winter campaign of 1868-1869, which included the Battle of the Washita, Cooke commanded the Corp d' Elite, a battalion of 40 sharpshooters. Cooke's sharpshooters approached along a course to the left of Custer's main command fairly fronted on the Cheyenne’s at the northernmost part of the river bend after the attack opened. They hid themselves in the brush on the northern side of the river, and waited for their targets to appear. After the attack, many Cheyenne’s fled downstream along the river where the sharpshooters shot at them. Very few Cheyenne who came their way survived unscathed, including Chief Black Kettle and his wife, Medicine Woman Later who were killed crossing the river bend.
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