Custer and Little Bighorn Myths

[yanmacca]

Cast your eyes back to the second painting that I posted, you know the one with the flags, now I know that some artists try to add real people into their work, and we see this with additions of people like GAC, TWC and Cook, but who is the dude in that painting, you can see him left of centre holding a hand gun, he looks like a cowboy or gun slinger from a western movie, he is in civilian clothes so who could it be, Boston, Reed or Bouyer? It may even be the artist himself having a cameo moment.

[deadwoodgultch]

Ian,

I can not blow it up. Could that be a cavalry gauntlet on his left hand? Is that something on the front of the hat? Officers were issued vests, or able to purchase. Could that beard be mutton chops grown together over the last month or so?

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

Tom, I have enlarged the image on my computer and he has a mustache (which is similar to mine) and also has a brown neckerchief, he has no gloves but has his sleeve rolled up to show a white undershirt and there is no badge on his hat.

[dave]

Beth
You are spot on regarding Cody. Another figure who gained mythical status was James Butler Hickok aka Wild Bill who lived a life of gaming and violence. 
Regards
Dave

[Beth]

May 5, 2016 12:28:13 GMT yanmacca said:

Cast your eyes back to the second painting that I posted, you know the one with the flags, now I know that some artists try to add real people into their work, and we see this with additions of people like GAC, TWC and Cook, but who is the dude in that painting, you can see him left of centre holding a hand gun, he looks like a cowboy or gun slinger from a western movie, he is in civilian clothes so who could it be, Boston, Reed or Bouyer? It may even be the artist himself having a cameo moment.

I suspect if you had a picture of LSH today the name on the marker closest to that position would be the person in the picture.  I suspect that those who have no face because they are facing uphill or in a position to hide their face represent every "unknown" on the hill while those who you see a face are named on the hill.

[yanmacca]

I never thought of it that way Beth, yes it does make sense to show people like Custer and Cook as they would stand out from the crowed, but adding others from actual photos would make it so realistic.

I have looked at the photos of the civilians present and none look like this guy.

[Beth]

May 8, 2016 13:14:16 GMT yanmacca said:

I never thought of it that way Beth, yes it does make sense to show people like Custer and Cook as they would stand out from the crowed, but adding others from actual photos would make it so realistic.

I have looked at the photos of the civilians present and none look like this guy.

I did the same thing.  Of course there is also the possibility that the artist put himself, a friend or patron in, when he didn't have picture.

Do you know the name of the artist.  I haven't been able to find it.

[deadwoodgultch]

Not battlefield centric, but interesting for those visiting Montana.

www.hauntedplaces.org/state/Montana

[deadwoodgultch]

Has anybody, heard the story of one of Custer's Sioux scouts leaving the command early? I wonder could this be related? This comes from Col. A.B. Welches interviews and notes, compiled in the early 20th Century. Welch served in WWI with the North Dakota Nation Guard. The Native he is referring to is Ian's "Who is this Bloke." I know, I know the boards pettifogger is at it again!

Now this is what I want to talk about: You have said that Chief John Grass was the man who planned the campaign when they killed those men in Montana (W-This refers to the Custer affair). You are writing a book about our relative Grass. He has told you what part he played in that. I have talked with many people, old ones, who knew. They always denied that thing. But you know.

Now they think that they are placing John Grass in a bad position before you. They say: “He (Welch) has the truth now. If he has the truth, and does not tell it - what is the use of having it if he cannot tell it.” That was a long time ago; the archives cannot be changed now; We think that it is time to tell it now. It cannot hurt anyone now. The claims we have against the Government will be put off from time to time anyhow. Auntie Cross is very old and will die pretty soon. She wanted Charging Bear to know but was afraid of punishment by the Government. She wanted to tell him (W-Welch) but was fearful of consequences. etc., etc.

Cadotte continued: So I believe it is all right for you to write it. The truth cannot hurt now. The archives have the Sihasapa as a ‘peaceful Teton tribe.’ Too much has been written and is now in the archives and they will remain that way.

Asked about details, he continued: The Oohenopa (Two Kettles) and the Sihasapa were together there. They nearly always camped together. Black Moon was with them - he was Headman of the Brave Hearts (Police). (W-the Brave Hearts was the largest of the Soldier Societies, and there were members in every tribe of the Tetons and even in the Isanti Division of the Dakota). Tall Mandan was also a Head Man of the Brave Hearts and was with the camp. They broke camp down somewhere along the Padani Wakpe (W-Grand river - meaning the River of the Arikara on account of their villages being at the mouth of that river) and went west into the valleys of the rivers flowing northward into the Hehaka Wakpe (W-Elk river, as they called the Yellowstone).

Before this time, General Custer had seen Grass and some other powerful men and wanted them to go with him into Montana country. Chief Grass told him like this: ‘You have smoked with me You have said that as long as water flows there will be peace between us. Therefore, you will not need me with you because you are going in peace. You have Padani Scouts with you who know the trails that way.’

Welch and Angela Boleyn interview Leo Cadotte (son of Grass’ sister), Mandan, N.D., September 6th 1943:

But, he could not believe that Custer would take so many soldiers with him if he was really going in peace. He did not want to be identified with a war expedition against his own people. When they broke camp they moved west to be out there. We believe that Grass laid out the general plan to congregate in the valley of the Greasy Grass. (W-This is the Big Country). Crazy Horse was a young man. He could not have made the plan or he would have kept away from Gen. Crook. No one ever said that Sitting Bull laid out the plan. Gall was doing just what Sitting Bull wanted him to do. Therefore, Gall did not do it. It was not Black Moon because he was not a Chief, but a Head Man of the Soldiers Society. Then came the battle. Crazy Horse obtained much notoriety because he was where Custer came into the valley and started for the ford. Gall was fighting at the south end of the village and did not reach the Custer ground until the battle was almost over. Sitting Bull did not fight.

After the battle Chief Grass went back fast to the Grande River. Tall Mandan probably went with him because he appeared there too. You ask who Scabby Head was and I cannot tell you because I do not know. Black Moon talked much after that and it is said that he was a great warrior at that fight. The old people never did call him Scabby Head. But the Sihasapa, nearly every young man among them, were there together with the Two Kettle fighting men. Their camp was about in the middle there. They probably fought with those of Crazy Horse. As the camps came in, they extended the camp line from Sitting Bull’s camp toward the north - so Chief Grass’ Sihasapa and Two Kettle must have appeared there and camped about the third in line toward the north. Crazy Horse’s band must have come in at the about the same time as the Cheyenne, and camped at the far north. (W-This seems logical according to the ‘map’ made by One Bull which shows the arrangement of the camps just before Custer struck them. It also agrees with the map made for me by Red Fish, a hostile Yanktonaise Chief, who made a mark on it and said ‘Chief Grass sat here.’ This last mentioned map shows the Council held after they had left the battlefield as troops started up the Big Horn after ferrying across the Yellowstone).

During this long conversation, Cadotte said several times, that he thought it would be all right now to tell the truth about it, and that it should be written by Mato Watakpe (Welch) and Mrs. Boleyn.

Excerpt from Angela Boleyn letter to Welch, referring to the foregoing conversation:

...Most interesting about Tall Mandan and Black Moon. But I think Scabby Head was Grass. A name he took or thought up at the moment he needed one, for Leo said it was not Black Moon. So Grass must have said something like this, ‘Say Scabby Head was in charge of the Sihasapa.’ Yes? and we have the story of the chiefs who smoked with Custer before he went after Sitting Bull and his hostiles and which culminated in the Custer Battle.
Welch interview with Grass, c. 1915:


Enough of that for now and on to Beth's desire to know more about NA art and drawings elsewhere on the board, after breakfast.

Regards,
Tom