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Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2016 18:56:46 GMT
Does anyone have a photograph or knows what Custer's view of the valley and bluffs would have been at the time he decided to go up on the bluffs instead of following Reno into the valley?
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 440
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Post by colt45 on Apr 15, 2016 19:26:35 GMT
At one time, AZ had posted some pictures from 3411 on the black board. You could search the threads there and find them. I will post one that I think I pilfered from AZ's post back then. It shows a view from 3411 looking toward Reno and the village. 3411 Panaramic sm.bmp (578.09 KB)
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Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2016 19:51:54 GMT
Not at 3411, I mean before that when he elected to go right, not left towards the bench or straight ahead down the valley-somewhere around Ford A.
I do appreciate the link though. I love AZ photos and find them extremely useful. I just don't always remember where I had seen them at though.
AZ I would love with your permission of course, to use that photo to replace the buffalo if possible--I'm not sure if it will work with proboards formating of the banners.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 440
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Post by colt45 on Apr 15, 2016 21:22:59 GMT
Beth, I don't know if anyone has posted a picture of what Custer would have seen when he was at the divergence point. Custer Apollo has videos on youtube that cover that section of the battle if you want to look up the one dealing with Reno Creek. As I recall, Custer wouldn't have been able to see the Indians that were visible to Reno after he crossed Ford A, and he sure couldn't have seen the village before 3411. I think he made the move up the bluffs after getting reports that the Indians in the valley were coming out to meet Reno, and he assumed that they were just there to screen the village so the majority could flee, and he felt he could hurry and flank them and catch them heading north away from Reno.
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Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2016 21:34:11 GMT
Custer obviously never heard that old cliche about 'assume'
I was wondering if he could have seen some of the NA who were on the bluff at the time and considering he was expecting the Indians to run, if he saw a handful elsewhere they must be running "that a way" or if it was likely that someone advised him that going left would be a better route.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2016 21:54:22 GMT
His visibility from the Reno Creek area would have been limited to the next northerly piece of high ground. The Indians were beyond that. He did apparently see some Indians moving, but that did not give him enough information to act, in my estimation. In short not much, and certainly not enough to send Reno away, or himself turn to the bluffs.
Audace, toujours audace, is only effective if you lookie see before you start speaking too much French.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Apr 16, 2016 10:50:47 GMT
Not at 3411, I mean before that when he elected to go right, not left towards the bench or straight ahead down the valley-somewhere around Ford A. I do appreciate the link though. I love AZ photos and find them extremely useful. I just don't always remember where I had seen them at though. AZ I would love with your permission of course, to use that photo to replace the buffalo if possible--I'm not sure if it will work with proboards formating of the banners. You most certainly can use that photo. I call it fencepost now.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
Brigadier General
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Post by azranger on Apr 16, 2016 11:08:48 GMT
I agree Colt. I think Custer was predisposed to what he believed the Indians were doing and he mentally fit observations of others to his perception of what was going on. Screening in my opinion is much different than moving to the flanks and rear of Reno. Those Indians were sure the village could take of itself.
As far as what Custer could see from Reno Creek would depend on location. I agree with Chuck on what would be the maximum visibility. As you ride closer to climbing out of Reno Creek you see less. There is a place on the 7th Ranch where you can look down the valley. I would think a good scout would have used it.
One of the points made by supporters of Custers chosen route is that it provided concealment preventing discovery and Custer could surprise the big village. If there were Indians on the bluffs it would take that point away. I am sure from the top looking down you could watch Custer's movement from distances beyond the range of the carbines. You can easily see into Reno Creek from the bluffs.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Apr 16, 2016 13:37:35 GMT
Screening and Guarding.
A screen seeks to deny visibility for something that you wish to remain hidden from direct view. Excellent example of a screen was the cavalry actions around Aldie, Virginia during the Gettysburg Campaign.
Guarding seeks to deny possession of some place.
Screening and guarding are two of the prime cavalry missions.
At LBH, what started as a screen, became a guard, and then a counterattack, all within the space of half an hour. Had Custer sent his whole force down that valley, they would have by initial preponderance of force alone, faced a screen. The opportunity to turn that screen into a guard, would have been lost to shock action and effect. No guard, which implies stopping, means no counterattack.
That situation, in my view would have continued, until Custer's attack reached its point of culmination (where it would run out of steam, and I estimate that being in the vicinity of Medicine Tail Coulee Ford (B). At that point, I think it possible for the Indian force to reestablish a screen. There was little left to guard, so their most probable course of action would be to salvage what toys they had, move north to a new battle position, probably somewhere between Crow Agency and Hardin.
Keep in mind had they done this they would still be between Custer and Terry, but also keep in mind they retain interior lines, and could screen Custer and turn the bulk on Terry, or screen Terry and turn back on Custer. They may have lost the battle of the camps, but they retained the potential for overwhelming combat power.
That is what tactics tell me. What the Indians would do however is attempt to break up, and that just ain't smart under the circumstances they found themselves in. Fight to decisive conclusion, whatever that may be. If you win break up. If you lose, losing is better than being hunted down like a dog for the next two years.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2017 2:48:35 GMT
"Go up into the mountain and see the land, what is it, and the people that dwelleth therein; whether they be strong or weak, few or many; and what the land is they dwell in; whether it be good or bad; and what cities they be that they dwell in; whether in tents or in strongholds"
Numbers, Chapter 13
Seems as if George skipped a class or two at Sunday School
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Post by Beth on Jun 4, 2017 5:57:31 GMT
And am I right that quote means, do your scouting and intel gathering first? I would never make an assumption on that book.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Jun 4, 2017 12:47:30 GMT
Brings up a good time to think about photo requests and other things. We are close to where Custer turned to go to the bluffs at the 7th Ranch. This year the Friends of LBH will be at Calhoun and Steve Adelson will lead the tour.
I have been talking with Chip Watts and want to tour some of the battle sites for the expedition of 1874. One of the sites is in SFRC and I think Custer knew from Herendeen of the travel corridor and the battle that occurred at Lodge Grass and SFRC. I believe it gives a justification to sending Benteen with 3 companies since the angle places him 5 miles up SFRC.
It is not a justification in my opinion to arrive further south on the LBH. That could been done by moving down Reno Creek and taking a drainage closer to the river to move south then cross into the valley.
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2017 14:29:33 GMT
"Thou assumteth correctly Beth, my little flower, and goeth down the pathway of military righteousness".
The Book of Quincannon, Chapter I
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on Jun 4, 2017 16:50:44 GMT
"Thou assumteth correctly Beth, my little flower, and goeth down the pathway of military righteousness". The Book of Quincannon, Chapter I Guess I really need to crush this cancer and get my sorry butt up to LBH to see for myself.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 4, 2017 17:07:24 GMT
Advisableth on both counteths. "Climb ontoeth the mountain as Moses commanded and spy out the Land of the Canaanites".
Book of Quincannon, Chapter 2
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