What should Custer have done?

[dave]

montrose
What should Custer done? I don't know that I have ever read what GAC should have done? We always read about what Reno, Benteen and any and all others did wrong but not the WWGD (What Would George Do) answer.
I know you see this material so clearly but I am looking through dark smoky lens and need a little help. Truth be known I bet there are others suffering from myopia also.
Regards
Dave

[quincannon]

Matt: Seeing Reno off is one thing. Having two messages from Reno telling him they are coming out for a fight, before he turned east onto the bluffs is another. At that point Custer knew he had a fight in the valley. Your evaluation and the actions to be taken are correct. You fight the battle you have, not the one you want. If they happen to be the same all the better, but they usually are not.

There is little room for anything fancy at regimental or brigade level. Custer was given the opportunity to burn them bad, and passed it up, in favor of fancy. From the point he turned Custer was totally unaware of how much he had stirred them up, and was oblivious to the counteractions they were taking in his rear.

It is little commented on, but in a fight in the valley, employing the whole regiment, Custer would have terrain on his side as long as he stayed in the upper valley, below the first circle. It was a Marathon had he chosen to keep his eye on the ball. Both his flanks would be refused (river on the right, high ground to the left), and all he had to do is let them come out and break their teeth on his line. From that point it would have been follow and pursue the Indian rear guard, and neither the rear guard or the Indian main body could move very fast, and they all would be moving in one direction, due north, and into Terry.

 

[dave]

Matt
Very good post just coming out of the gate. I agree with you that Custer should have kept the whole outfit together instead of his piecemeal approach. I asked montrose what he thought Custer should have done because it would be very informative having a combat experienced Colonel explain what was needed and how to apply that force.

Welcome and please continue sharing your ideas and thoughts. Like any good ex bureaucrat I steal the good stuff and claim it as mine so don't hold back.
Regards
Dave

[Beth]

Montrose posed a different board a conversation on judging Reno and Custer by different standards. One of the things mentioned was how Reno selected a high ground location and defended it--and that Custer could have done the same thing. What position could Custer have defended similar to Reno Hill?

BTW Montrose I agree wholeheartedly about having a double standard for judging Reno and Custer. If anything shouldn't Custer have been held at a even higher standard?

[deadwoodgultch]

I placed this elsewhere and was looking for a place to drop it here. I have edited it some.


I rarely expound in depth on my opinions, because for the most part, that is what they are. I generally leave the longer dissertation to Montrose or Fred, because as I have admitted to many, I am more of a top line student.
Did Custer have a plan? Yes, I guess he did and no, because he never shared it with his subordinates, those who had to help implement it. He also divided his strength(firepower) before an enemy of uncertain location and size. He did this when he was uncertain of the terrain where he must engage this enemy. Then he subdivided the remaining firepower again.

Custer ordered Reno to attack the camp from the south with one battalion, while he circled around the ridge with the other battalion and hit the Indian village from the north. Based on all previous Indian-soldier encounters, this was a risky, but workable strategy, if it had been shared.

Reno's charge faltered. Instead of attacking straight into the village, Reno halted 200 yards away and formed a skirmish line. And with good reason. Intelligence had estimated a village with 800 warriors, but there were, in fact, more than 2,000. Even with surprise on his side, Reno's 140 men were outmatched and soon forced from the field.

Reno ordered a breakout that soon became a panicked rout. By the time his command got to a safer position, 1/3 of his men were dead. Benteen comes along with Indians still attacking, Reno shattered, and his battalion in chaos, Benteen elected to stay put and help Reno's men. Custer was now on his own.

Probably GAC was not aware of the outcome of Reno's attack, so he continues on the offensive and rode north to attack the village from its northern end. However, by the time he got there(it was the middle), the women and children had fled. GAC had divided his force into two wings. The right wing attempted to hold Calhoun Hill and wait for Benteen, who they assumed would be on his way. Custer led the left wing in search of another ford further north from which he could still capture the noncombatants.

GAC found his ford, but he had too few men to capture the village. Still confident, he turned back to collect the rest of his troops, when he saw collapse of the right wing. So he died with 85 of his men and the remnants of Keogh's command. The final act of this Shakespearian tragedy did not take long. It could have ended differently if a plan had been shared and executed.

Regards,
Tom

[Beth]

Tom I really appreciate you laying out your opinions. I to believe that Custer had a plan in his head that he was constantly changing as the situation on the ground changed, but since as far as we know, he didn't share it with anyone, if Custer had been killed or incapacitated early in the battle, everyone else would have been SOL with no idea how Custer had planned to bring everything together.

Basic questions

Why did Custer send Reno to attack the village sight unseen? Do you think it was because Custer thought the village was somewhere either before or closer to Ford A?

Was Reno's attack ever going to be riding into the village or was it always going to be dragoon style--get close, dismount and fire or is the problem with Reno's attack not how he did it but where--as he should have been closer to the village before dismounting.

[deadwoodgultch]

Beth,

Million dollar questions. I am reduced to opinion again.

Sight unseen? GAC did not want the NA's to have a chance to prepare for either attack or scattering. He was hoping to keep them off balance. Chase the runners was the plan, at that point it was the plan.

Before or closer to Ford A? At that point GAC was sure it was north, just not exactly sure where, how large, or if any was east of the river. Ever see Beagles chase rabbits? The rabbits will eventually go to their den.

Reno's attack? The village would be great, GAC wanted the NA focus on Reno. As much as I hate to say it, when GAC chose not to follow up Reno's attack, he was saying Reno's command was a tool for the greater good, they were even expendable.

I would guess the above opinions are as good as any. There are tactics involved, but not a shared plan. You know if Reno had been clued in to an overall plan he could have drawn a sizable number of the warriors south away from the village, to GAC's benefit, with minimal loss of life.

Regards,
Tom

[azranger]

I think if Reno knew that Custer was not following then he moved to fast and should not have dismounted.

If the Indians are willing to come out toward a single battalion. Let them come out  Staying mounted they can move further away from the village drawing them further up the valley.  Once the horses were in the timber for cover and concealment Reno lost mobility even on foot.

Speed and mobility are the advantages of cavalry over the infantry of the time. Once infantry is mounted the gap narrows.

The Indians took advantage of the gap Custer created by not following Reno. They moved in small groups to surround Reno.

Reno took advantage of the Indians scattered surrounding force by concentrating his force to breakout.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[quincannon]

A plan is not a plan until it is transmitted. Before that it is a concept, and in this case the concept never became a plan.

And no, you go here, you go there, I'll go another place, is not a plan either. A plan must have a beginning, actions to be taken, and an end state, to be called a plan.

[yanmacca]

Could it be as simply as “there is the enemy now go and get him”? Reno was informed by the regimental adjutant that the village was only two miles away and running, to then move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent, and to charge afterward, and that the whole outfit would support him (Reno’s account at the RCOI).

Now if Indians were spotted in the valley and the cavalry responded by taking them head on, then what about the Indians that were spotted on the bluffs? Now I have never ever read anything which explains who these Indians where, as they are too close to be Wolftooth’s band. Bottom line if Reno was sent forward as a reaction to warriors in the valley, could Custer have responded to a similar threat on his left flank? I suppose it is hard for use to see just what a threat these warriors posed to Custer’s plans, could he simply let them be, and continue forward, or was he compelled to engage because of the following pack train?

Yan.

[dave]

I have studied this battle to learn and appreciate the efforts and sacrifices made by the troops. I eventual came to realize that I recognized Custer's plan.

It reminded me when I was a kid playing tag football and we made up plays in the huddle that we never followed but would just ad lib as we went along. Custer had a vague idea based on past behavior of the Indians. They forgot to play their roles and he never adjusted. Game over.
Regards
Dave

[BrevetorCoffin]

Mar 2, 2016 15:58:35 GMT dave said:

I have studied this battle to learn and appreciate the efforts and sacrifices made by the troops. I eventual came to realize that I recognized Custer's plan.

It reminded me when I was a kid playing tag football and we made up plays in the huddle that we never followed but would just ad lib as we went along. Custer had a vague idea based on past behavior of the Indians. They forgot to play their roles and he never adjusted. Game over.
Regards
Dave

Taking the football analogy further I am guessing Custer expected Reno to go long, fooled everyone with a quick buttonhook but Custer blew it by heading to the sidelines? ;-)

Best,

David

[quincannon]

You made up plays in the huddle.

1) Made up = Concept of Operations

2) Huddle = The plan is formulated and transmitted to those that needed to execute it.

3) Never followed/ad lib = No plan survives the line of departure. The enemy has a vote. Ad lib is better than fumble fart to defeat.

I think you kids did a pretty good job. A hell of a lot better than Custer was capable of apparently

[Beth]

Is it just me or did every order that Custer gave that day (that we know about) seem like they were only one half of an order--they just left hanging. They never answer the 'and then what' part of the plan. Benteen was to go valley hunting--and then what? Reno was to charge the village--and then what? Benteen was to bring packs quick and then what? Are there implied ending to those orders that I just don't see because I have no military experience?

[dave]

QC

All the planning in the world avails you nothing if you can not adjust on the fly. You have mentioned how all plans go out the window when contact is made with the enemy but what if they did not have a plan? Custer not sharing any plans with his subordinates is like him not having a plan at all, or I am wrong?



No doubt Custer should have shared his plans with Reno, Benteen and the others as well as maintaining mutual support with his units. Custer was in deep do do when he went north and left Reno without the promised support. I know from my past experiences if I did not share my plan with my staff we had not possible chance of reaching our goals or providing the very best service to our students and would have flopped around like a googledeyed perch in the bottom of a jon boat.



I have offended an Irish Dragoon with The Frontier Army of Dakota with my opinion that Custer and Custer alone was responsible for the defeat of the 7th Cavalry and the annihilation of the 5 companies that accompanied him north pass 3411. I am truly unable to see any other judgement and doubt history will either if studied dispassionately.

Regards
Dave