Reno needed more troops

[yanmacca]

Hi everyone, I just want to ask you all your opinion about if Reno have had four companies instead of three and its effect on the valley fight, now Reno had one hard flank which extended into the timber, now as far as I know this flank was not turned by the enemy even though it was only lightly defended, I know that one company left the line to counter the threat of Indians stealing the soldiers horses but I don’t think they ever got near the horse holders.

Reno’s centre position too, managed to hold and again I don’t think the Indians got close enough to cause any damage, so now we come to his left flank.

Now just by looking at any map of the valley fight you would notice this flank as being a weak point, now what would have happened if Reno had a forth company still mounted and operating on the flank, would this had made a difference? Would this had given Reno’s men a longer period of time in skirmish order?

If Reno would have had say an extra 15-30 minutes defending the valley floor, and Benteen turned up with another two or three companies and reinforced this left flank, would this be enough to keep the Indians at bay?

Now I know that there would have been another 500 or Indians still in the circles but would they have had the confidence to leave the village and go after Custer with so much uncertainty and the valley fight still hanging in the balance?

Yan.

[mac]

Interesting idea Ian and the whole timing thing of what if Benteen arrived prior to Reno leaving the valley is also interesting in terms of the intimidation value of more troops suddenly appearing.
Of course the end point is that they should have all been in the valley!
Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac,
You are quite right! 8 companies should have been in the valley from the get go, until the others arrived for support.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Like everything else - It depends.

If you speculate that another company with Reno would have made any difference, the answer is probably no, if you mean a difference in historical outcome. One more covering that left flank would have helped, but would not prevent the Indian flanking force from going wider and still reaching Reno's rear. At some point Reno would have had to consolidate his position to meet that threat, which is essentially the same thing he did with three companies.

If you are talking Reno being an advanced guard for Custer, and Custer being the main body, staying in the valley as he should, then Reno had more troops than he needed for that AG mission. The structure should have been two(Reno) and six (Custer). Give Reno only what he needs to poke a finger in the nest and get a reaction. Custer coming up would have moved to Reno's left (the right being secure on the river)and thwarted any movement by Indians on the left.

What is interesting is that with four companies would Reno have lasted longer? Probably, and also probably that lasting longer would drawn Benteen to the sound of firing. That has all kinds of possibilities, every one of them worse than the historical outcome. Benteen, with two or three, is NOT going to break through the Indians in Reno's rear. At that point you have everyone in a spot of vulnerability which they probably cannot extract themselves.

[yanmacca]

If Benteen arrived after Reno's skirmish line had collapsed then I would say that Benteen would be routed as Reno was, Benteen had to arrive at a point were Reno still held a line across that valley floor, any later and his battalion would be wasted either trying to force a way through to the timber of holding ground and waiting for Reno to break out and reach him, either way they would be forced back with losses.

Benteen and Reno had to keep the pressure on in the valley and Custer had to raise merry hell at the river, this would give the Indians two threats to counter, they did have the warriors to counter both threats, but to form two independent groups and take on both threats with little or no communication may force them to fight in penny packets and I don't know how long they would continue fighting or their resolve to resists, they too had only so much ammo and even arrows.

Yan.

[quincannon]

Again it depends.

If Reno is still on his skirmish line, and the Indians had not made it around his left flank, then Benteen with the packs may have made it to Reno. History tells us that is not the case. From the outset Indians were wide on that flank and heading to Reno's rear.

The danger for Reno was from his rear, that being the area from the timber to Ford A. As long as there were Indians there, and I suspect you would only need a hundred or so (and there were a hack of a lot more than that) Benteen (with the packs) does not have a snowball's chance in hell of breaking in to Reno. It is doubtful to me if it could have been done without the packs in the historical scenario.

There were perhaps eight to nine hundred Indians that faced Reno. There would then be plenty that were uncommitted to face Custer at odds of four or five to one.

The Reno dog does not hunt. The Reno/Benteen together dog does not hunt, and the Custer taking advantage of troubles in the valley dog does not hunt. These things are only possible in the rather disturbed minds of Captain Pretend and his misbegotten acolytes.

There is only one solution that gives a chance of favorable outcome, that being straight up the valley with all the combat power you have. There are several ways to do that, but the key is the force being together.

[dave]

Folks I may be on the wrong wave length but Reno's danger in the flats was from the rear. Kinda like when Pemberton stumbled out of his Vicksburg lines and attempted to strike Sherman who had captured Jackson but scurried back. A hermit crab has to always protect the rear as did Reno.
Regards
Dave

[Beth]

Reno wouldn't have had a problem from the rear if he could have prevented the NA from coming around his left flank. I wonder though if the NA were checked on the left flank by Custer, would they have gone up the bluff both to shoot down on the troops but also flank around on the right.

[quincannon]

Reno's rear was the only area of concern to Reno. The route to that rear was around Reno's left flank - wide - then deep

Reno should not have had any concern about his rear had Custer done his job, that being having control of the main body in trail about one terrain feature OR five to seven hundred meters behind Reno.

[Beth]

I am curious, what was Reno expecting to see from Custer? At what point would Custer (or any support) be expected to enter the fray?

[yanmacca]

Beth I have mentioned just that in the past, if various members of Reno’s battalion saw Custer’s troops on the bluffs then this would indicate that there would be no support coming from behind, they would have ruled out from the left/west too, Reno himself may have not seen soldiers on the bluffs and no one may have bothered to tell him, but I would think that this would have been difficult with the battalion storming down the valley, imagine if private so and so saw Custer on the bluffs, he then shouts this sighting out loud so that his 1st sergeant hears, now this NCO would have to alert his company commander, who in turn would have to despatch a rider to tell Reno, but for all this effort Reno may have already been told or even saw Custer’s men himself, which would add up to the solder who saw the men on the bluffs in the first place to think “aw well it’s not worth the bother”

Yan.

[quincannon]

Reno sent two gallopers to find Custer when he first realized that the Indians were coming out. Those two died with Custer, so we can rightly assume that they reached Custer, gave him the message, and Custer ignored it.

The time that message was sent was the time for Reno to start bringing a halt to his forward movement. Frederick the Great is said to have remarked that any of his cavalry commanders who awaited the attack from their opposite number would be sacked. Freddy was full of crap. Indians coming out, getting them to come out, was the mission of an advanced guard - stick your finger in and see what flies out. In fact the further away from the village, and as close as possible to the ford is just what you want to happen.

Look at the maps that we all probably have at this point. Close to Ford A there is a loop in the river, a fairly narrow piece of valley, and a good piece of high ground on the left. The loop and river would protect Reno's right, the high ground his left, and the narrowness of the valley would provide an Alamein like position for Reno's companies, with a great possibility of retaining one in reserve.

[yanmacca]

That would be a great place to blunt the Indian advance, the problem would be though, how far would the Indians be prepared to go and if the saw how well the soldiers were positioned with a river to their front and high ground, would they still try and force the issue, I think they would keep chasing Reno especially if he turned his back on them but something tells me that they would stop short and even smell a rat, they too maybe thinking themselves about being drawn into a trap and leaving the village open to attack, I still think that they would take the bait but just for how long I don’t know.

Yan.

[quincannon]

Make no mistake, my what Reno should have done solution is merely a stopgap measure. He is still in trouble no matter how good a position he adopts. What it does is keep his rear clear until the Indians find a work around, probably by going to the high ground. At that point he must he must exit using alternating bounds, and get across the ford, hopefully breaking contact.

WHIFFS are no darn good unless the whiff has the potential to change outcomes. The only better outcome in this is they stand less of a chance of being totally destroyed, and allows positive command and control to be maintained.

The only WHIFF that could change the battle outcome is an attack by the regiment straight up the valley. Everything else is a waste of time and effort. Small measures, such as I described only tweak around the edges of better outcome.

[Beth]

WHIFFS?