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Post by yanmacca on Dec 4, 2015 11:54:31 GMT
I am going to back track here and change my perspective a little, now I don’t expect that the 7th once fragmented could have beaten the village and win the day, but my main point was that Custer didn’t lay out any plans and share them with his subordinates, no one outside of Custer’s now mobile HQ had a clue on what was happening, Reno, Benteen and McDougal were left in the dark of even his whereabouts never mind his battle plan.
If he decided early in the piece to divide and hit from another point on the compass then he should have made this clear to all, so the risk should have been splitting into three combat groups or battalions and attacking from two directions with two of the groups, the third group should be made clear that they should abandon their scout and re-join the main trail and pitch in, as the pack train was well manned and should be able to look after itself and not rely on another 120+ of Benteen's badly needed troops to hold its hand.
Over the decision to carry on after 3411, well there was a lot of experience officers among that group, GAC, TWC, Keogh and Yates to name the top four, they also had Bouyer who stayed with Custer almost to the end, now whatever they saw or whatever they knew they still carried on, so either they were all too dumb or too scared to challenge their commander we will never know but they did it and suffered the consequences and marched on, apparently they were so invigorated that they started waving their hats.
Custer also had a few civilians along including close family members, so was the mood in the group really that dark after 3411?
Yan.
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dave
Brigadier General
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Post by dave on Dec 4, 2015 15:40:54 GMT
Yan
"Custer also had a few civilians along including close family members, so was the mood in the group really that dark after 3411? "
I know squat about combat but I do know human nature. Custer had always believed in "Custer's luck" and there was no reason to doubt he would be successful. When you look at his life, both in the military and civilian spheres, he seldom if ever shared his ideas and plans with anyone and acted on instincts.
Kinda like the old joke about a cop who did not let facts and circumstances get in the way of a conviction, Custer had little if any doubt about his course of actions. QC mentioned that a commander who bet on his soldier's lives was a fool. Custer was an inveterate gambler who went to his grave with one last throw of the dice who sadly took over 200 soldiers with him. Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 4, 2015 16:03:59 GMT
I don’t think it ever crossed his mind at all that he was gambling, that may seem kind of stupid but I don’t reckon that to Custer this move north was nothing more than a military manoeuvre evolving into a encirclement which he hope would stop as many Indians as possible from escaping, all the dust he saw would equate to a mass panic among the camp circles as they gathered what they could and ran, apart from a few shots down by the river Custer had not seen anything to suggest that he was going to be preyed upon and probably that this was all he was going to face, the first time he did realise any danger would be when he saw what was coming across the river further north.
The Crazy Horse attack would have probably hit its straps about this point and I would guess that this mounted band would have split the two groups just as Custer turned tail from ford D and C Company was deflected away and routed. Custer could have reached the cemetery position and found that he was being blocked from two or more sides.
The Crazy horse attack had to be made around this time because if this band had rode up DR it would be drawn towards the first group of soldiers it came across, so if either Custer or C Company was spotted then this is where they would have attacked, as no one was in sight they carried on through the gap to hit Calhoun from the rear because he would have been their main target, unfortunately Keogh was caught in this thrust and I bet this came as a shock to both parties, with momentum going to the Indians.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 4, 2015 17:04:16 GMT
That is not exactly what I said Dave, but close.
When you go into combat you are always betting on your soldiers lives, for it is the lives of your soldiers that are the blue chips, the coin of the conflict. That is why you calculate, evaluate, and exercise care with the bet you make. That is different in my mind from gambling, where the gambler is staking all on one turn of the card, without due deliberation and evaluation. Everything Custer did from 3411 on (at least)was gambling, and to that you may read going forward without evaluation and due deliberation.
Perhaps it is time to take a tangent here. If you remember the movie Gettysburg out some years ago, Chamberlain was the major player. All through the Little Round Top fight you could determine that he cared for the soldiers in his charge. He fought them, but it was obvious that he was trying to preserve as many as he could, and still accomplish the mission. He took risks, great risks, like staying when his ammunition levels said go, and that magnificent swinging door flank attack was a risk for the ages. The Chamberlain portrayed on the screen, was a true depiction of the man, one of religious upbringing, and strong moral character. He was not a professional soldier, but at the same time professional in every way.
Now much has been made of commanders of that era not caring, using their soldiers as just so many cyphers, so much cannon fodder. While there were some, and Custer is at the top of my list, the vast majority of that era were I believe Chamberlain like.
There is, regardless of the morality of the issue, a very selfish reason for a commander to care, and have that care play out in the professionalism of his decision making process. Each soldier is an element of combat power. Each one adds to the total of combat power available. All other things being equal the commander with the most, and most wisely used, combat power wins, and winning is what they are there for.
Ian: Custer was flailing about. He had not previously set the conditions for success, and he was rewarded in the manner reserved for that particular type of fool.
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 4, 2015 17:19:51 GMT
Well ok, I didn't want to put you out too much.
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Post by Beth on Dec 4, 2015 20:43:59 GMT
I don't think that Custer would have viewed his actions as gambling. He might have considered it a calculated risk perhaps or even relying on luck. However it was a gamble that the bluffs would get him around the village for example-at least that is everyone's theory and that there would be a way down from the bluffs that would meet his military needs, not something only good for a single file approach. Custer was gambling that if he got ahead of the village that Reno would drive the village into his men.
Idle observation. Do you suppose that if Custer was advised that there were plenty of ways down off the bluff he bothered to ask if the ways down were suitable for his needs and not just single or double file ravine?
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Dec 5, 2015 0:47:51 GMT
QC I goofed and should have said Gamble. Bragg was one who cared little for his troops, the enemy or himself I believe. Excellent read about Joshua L Chamberlain In The Hands of Providence by Alice Rains Trulock. I am to the march to Gettysburg in late June of 1863. Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 5, 2015 11:09:37 GMT
I suppose Beth that there was a few places that could be used to, but it seems that he was hell bent on getting behind the village, he thought that he could do this at ford B but the place extended further then he thought and this decision to split and keep on searching was just as big a risk then the one he took after he saw the village from 3411.
May I wish Treasuredude a happy birthday, all the best mate.
Yan.
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