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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2015 17:11:16 GMT
One reason the French were so fond of U S weapons is that is pretty much all they had, and we gave them more for Indo China and Algeria. They start to taper off after that. The carbine was a particular favorite in Indo China, as is was relatively short and light weigh, which made it suitable for jungle fighting. Their arms industry was almost nonexistent after WWII.
I can't think of the lieutenant's name who commanded Company K right off the top of my head, but he was also the technical advisor on the movie. The name will come to me. There were plenty of lieutenants commanding companies in Korea, so that is not at all unusual.
The machine guns were present, because the company commander had already attached them to the rifle platoons, again the normal way of doing business. You can take the detaching of the weapons platoon to mean that the assaulting company would not have its recoilless rifles and mortars in the assault. Again this is not all that unusual. What they probably did was mass the mortars of the two assaulting companies to mass fires. Don't know what use they would have made of the RR's and it has been a long time since I read the book.
The strength of 130 is just about right for the three rifle platoons with MGs attached, if you figure the company had been in combat for some time and had sustained some slight reduction in strength. A rifle platoon with an MG attached, along with the medics and FO's, would be around 45. Add in about 8 to 10 in a company tactical headquarters and you would be about 145 full strength.
The name was Clemmons.
You will also recall my mention in the past of routinely attaching my MGs and RLs to my rifle squads. On a movement to contact I would always give a MG and a RL to my lead squad, keep one RL with my platoon headquarters, and give the other machine gun to my trailing squad. Once given it was up to that rifle squad leader to control the fires of that weapon. My weapons squad leader was always with me, and would advise me on supporting fires, and act as platoon sergeant when the platoon sergeant was away
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2015 19:15:06 GMT
That was always a question I put on other military boards, every support weapons unit at company level in nearly every army was usually led by either an officer or a senior NCO (or both in some cases) and a couple of orderlies, now the principle of splitting this unit and parcelling out the various support weapons to the infantry companies was widespread, each detached team usually had between three and five men depending on the weapon, but once this support unit is divided then the command section would I guess join the company HQ, but what would they control as each weapon squad was under the control of the platoon commander, leaving the weapons HQ twiddling their thumbs at CHQ, unless of course you could find a role for them.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2015 19:56:24 GMT
The role of the weapons platoon headquarters (three men) after all the detachments were made was to join the company headquarters, and in conjunction with the attached Forward observer team (from the FA direct support battalion)operate a control element for supporting fires. That is one of the hardest jobs the company must undertake, in that the fires of the company mortar section, battalion mortars, direct support and general support field artillery , as well as air must be coordinated to be effective. Fire planning and control is a tough job if done correctly.
We build our force to both fire and maneuver, and maneuver is no good without fire, and fire is no good without maneuver.
Look at a weapons platoon as a collection of tools, that are meant to be used where they will do the most good. Then the keeper of the tools moves on to his primary job, after the tools have been distributed. He then collects them again after the battle, and redistributes them again, perhaps in a different way, when the company next goes into battle.
By the way Pork Chop Hill is a bastardization of the Korean words for "it's complicated" Add to that the ever controlling mantra of the U S Army. The answer depends upon the situation. I think it is complicated to understand our ways from a distance, with only a largely non-American background as the basis for understanding. And understanding how the American Army operates truly does depend upon the situation.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2015 20:07:19 GMT
Great info Chuck.
that is a good way of using these men, as it would be wrong to have them based with the CHQ doing nothing, so it sounds as though they were specialists as well as platoon commanders, if they step up to this role then they would go from light mortars and MGs to spotting for 105s or larger.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2015 20:14:20 GMT
the main scene in Pork Chop movie was were when Peck and another lieutenant both commanded a platoon each, the third was kept back in reserve, when the got to the top they found their way blocked by barbed wire and behind that a trench full of heavily armed Chinese with machine guns and grenades, which in reality would have shot the pants off these troops on the slope, but I enjoyed it, I got the DVD for a song from amazon (£1.50 with postage).
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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2015 20:30:28 GMT
NO, they would plan and coordinate supporting fires. Planning and coordination.
Calling for fires and directing those fires is the job of the forward observer.
The rifle platoons all have an attached forward observer from the mortar section of the company weapons platoon.
Each rifle company has a forward observer team attached from the battalion heavy mortar platoon.
Each rifle company also has an attached FO party from the regiments or brigades direct support artillery battalion.
Each battalion has a fire support coordinator also attached from the direct support FA battalion. His job is to collect and integrate the fire support plans of each company, then forward all of these to the similarly attached fire support coordinator at the regiment or brigade level.
Most of the actual calling for and adjusting fires during battle is done at rifle platoon level by a junior sergeant with a radio, and he is the same guy who was originally attached to that platoon from the mortar section of the company weapons platoon. We take great pride in integrating our fire support and control capability together as a whole from every level from platoon to division. The FO calls for fire. The fire support coordinator is the guy who decides what weapon is appropriate for the target, and who is going to fire in support, be it mortar, howitzer, or gun.
When you read more on Pork Chop Hill you will find that nearly 100,000 rounds of artillery and mortar fire for the first battle which is the one depicted in the movie. I knew an officer, very senior when I met him, who was a fire support coordinator in HHB 7th DIVARTY during that battle. They had several mortar sections from different rifle companies, heavy mortar platoons from at least four infantry battalions, one regimental heavy mortar company, and as I recall 10 field artillery battalions supporting Company K, 31st Infantry (that's a DIVARTY plus at least two FA Groups) all directed by one very junior enlisted man with a radio.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2015 20:34:53 GMT
Clemmons commanded Company K Ian, not a platoon. He commanded all three platoons. He was doing what a company commander must do, add emphasis to a part of the battle by his personal presence.
He was awarded the DSC for that action and went on to command a brigade in Vietnam, but I can't recall which one.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2015 12:01:48 GMT
Yes Chuck I know he commanded the company, what I said was left one platoon in reserve and took one platoon straight up the slope, the second platoon (which in the movie was commanded by George Shibata) went to Peck's left. just that they must have lost their Co and the senior lieutenant took over.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2015 12:02:34 GMT
When we used to wargame ww2 battles I use to insist that we included an infantry force, many just wanted armoured engagements with tanks blasting away at each other from around 1000m, which you can do if you are pitting the Russians against the Germans, but it was not realistic in my book, along with the AFVs and infantry I always added artillery, usually say 4 x 81mm mortars or 105mm howitzers and these were based off table and fire directed by a FOO.
The two modes of fire we used were map/indirect or direct, the former was used mostly in a blind barrage before movement began, which could be a waste since it was done by a map of the table, you obviously drew a map of your dispositions before the game and if they were situated on an obviously place, say some cross roads or hill, then if this area was chosen by your opponent they you got hit and placed any destroyed elements on the table after the barrage was over.
But the most popular mode was direct, but this was a timely undertaking and it went something like this, the attack by A platoon has gone to ground and was stopped by dug in enemy forces in a hamlet, so the platoon commander request support fire by the battery of 105s that is located off table, now this request goes to the company HQ (1 move), the FOO who is located with the CHQ sends co-ordinates for a fire mission to the battalion HQ (2 moves), the BHQ then contacts the battery of 105s (3 moves) and one move later the shells start to fall, so time wise it has took four minutes for the order to pass through. Some requests had to go through to Regimental HQ before it reached the battery which would take 5 moves, but this varied depending on which army and country or what date in the war you were actually wargaming.
I must mention that one move made in game time is equivalent to one minute of real time.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 21, 2015 16:24:12 GMT
That is fairly accurate as to how it is done, but fire planning is the Korean version of Pork Chop Hill - It's complicated.
Targets are preplanned during either offensive and defensive operations. Known enemy locations are always allotted target designations, then you go to likely locations where the enemy may be but not yet identified, then places that might be used as attack positions, rally points etc. (defense), You also plan targets that will seal off the battlefield (offense). In the defense you always plan final protective fires, which in effect seal off your defensive area with a literal ring of steel. There is also counterbattery fire, and this is planned for both offense and defense.
Now when a fire plan is developed for the offense the maneuver commander has all these targets designated on his fire plan, which may be distributed as an annex to his operations order, or it may be more informal during an oral order. (i.e. I've got fire planned for you here, here, and here).
Defensive planning is a little more complicated. It starts at the rifle platoon level and first includes all his organic weapons, AR's MG, A-A. The platoons attached mortar forward observer adds in indirect fire targets like FPF (Final protective fire), trail junctions, likely assault positions, avenues of approach. It then goes to company where they consolidate the plans of the platoons, and the FO's at that level add into the plan anything the company commander wants. Then to battalion where the companies are consolidated and the fire support coordinater adds as appropriate, then to brigade, and so forth.
What you end up with in either case (offense or defense) is for want of better words a matrix of planned fires. All targets are given a number, and the data needed for the guns or mortars is computed and recorded in the respective fire direction centers. All this before the first shot is fired.
When you need these fires all that is necessary to say is fire target (number), or Fire mission from target (designation) right one hundred drop two hundred will adjust or if you are very sure fire for effect. All these calls for fire are monitored on the fire direction net, and at any level those fires may be denied. silence is agreement. It is very fast, and your five minutes could be a lifetime, or a life ending experience.
Fire planning and coordination is a complicated business.
Your two methods of fire map and direct then should rightly be called planned fires, and visually acquired adjusted fires.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2015 19:37:53 GMT
Good stuff Chuck, just by looking at the way the US Army trained and planned artillery fires you can see how they differed to countries like Japan, one of the main differences is radio communication, the IJA was certainly not blessed with the amount of radios that the US Army took into a fight, so they got round it with different means.
One their favourite tactics was to pre-plan, and this was done in a similar was to the US Army. I recall how the US Marines spoke about how deadly the Japanese artillery could be on the defensive and just how few rounds they fired to achieve their mission and inflict maximum casualties.
They did it by marking off various zones on a map, each zone would be covered by a battery of four 75mm guns, all the marines did was to move across any of these zones and wham they got shelled, and because everything was pre-planned the order to fire could be given by any officer or NCO who was commanding at that point, all the artillery battery needed was the order to fire and this could be done by any means from cable phone to flare, and because the Japanese were short of ammo they were rationed to only so many rounds per barrage, so they made everyone count, and as the marines said they were hit by a sharp but accurate barrage which only lasted a few minutes but it achieved its goal.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 21, 2015 21:43:52 GMT
That is essentially the same thing we do in the planning and coordination stage. The difference the radio makes is that you can shift or lift those fires much more rapidly.
The real advantage is in shifting fires by observing the target, and having a radio at hand. If your enemy is not cooperative and does not move through the exact area you planned for, you, using your radio link to your FDC, can take a preplanned concentration and shift those fires, using the preplanned concentrations gunnery data, and move it right or left, up (further away from the observer), down (nearer the observer), and you don't have to recalculate all of the firing data, saving time.
Fairly easy --- Fire Mission. From concentration XYZ right 200 (meters), drop 200, will adjust. Response: Shot. Right 100. Response: Shot. Target, fire for effect
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2015 14:02:55 GMT
The Germans really got a nasty surprise when the US Army first used the VT proximity fuse, during the battle of the bulge the German infantry thought that the bad weather would impede US Artillery accuracy and timed fire, but they soon suffered many casualties as units got decimated when caught in the open, in fact after a while some German infantry units refused to move from their bunkers when under US artillery fire.
Yan.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 26, 2015 21:23:18 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2015 10:04:59 GMT
Thanks Dave, looks like the ACV is the new LVT without the tracks, and sort of like an armoured DUKW. I recall that the in WW2 the marines called for an armoured vehicle to be able to swim across the water, roll up the beach and deposit its cargo of marines right on the enemy. These vehicles were mainly used in the pacific theatre, probably because most of the islands had to be taken by amphibious assaults, and the LVTs were in their element.
I am not quite sure if they were used in any number in Europe, the British army used some during the battles to clear the Scheldt in northern Holland in late 1944 and to cross the Rhine in early 1945, and these vehicles served with the famous 79th armoured division commanded by Percy Hobart.
But how many amphibious assaults do we see now, I suppose it is nice to have these vehicles in your locker if the occasion arose, but I suppose they would probable fill the role of an APC, with additional use of being capable of crossing rivers and lakes, the possibility of them landing out to sea and swimming in to take a fortified beach would be rare, but not impossible.
Yan.
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