How for should Harrington go?

[mac]

The movement of Company C is often referred to as going too far. I see why this is a problem but wonder why it happened. The first part of that is how far should he go and what should he do when he gets there?
Let me start here...
If the purpose is to protect the flank of the Company L skirmish line does he need to go any further than the end of that line?
Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac,
Only for two reasons. One, to suppress/breakup fire from hunkered down NA positions too close to your lines or two, to stop them from massing for an attack. As the NA #s increased C could not do either. Hence the results we see.

Regards,
Tom

[mac]

Thanks Tom.
I am prompted by Montrose's interesting interpretation that they went past the infilrated warriors and I wonder why you would not move to the end of the position you are supporting and then proceed say as a skimish line pushing the enemy ahead of you. Once you are covering the flank of L do you really need to go further? Is not the point to simply keep them at "arms length" as long as you need.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Hi Mac, Montrose does give a great account of what he thought happened, but if the officer who gave the order to proceed with this manoeuvre (whether it be Keogh, Calhoun or Harrington) didn’t know that the Indians were encroaching via Calhoun coulee, then the main threat from this direction would have come from greasy grass ridge which I think would be out of range for both the soldiers and the Indians to engage each other, so this threat would be visual only.

Now down to the terrain, I have not been there so I have only viewed the area by photos and other media, but looking at the topography there is a spine of high ground which covers lower Calhoun coulee from both battle ridge and Calhoun hill, so to get to the proposed position that C company first took casualties, which looks slightly higher, then they may have rode through this dead area.

So at first glance Harrington may have headed for this elevated spot but misjudged the distance and the amount of dead ground, sort of like blundered into an enemy position, and he then took fire when trying to swing to his left and head for FF ridge, which by this time his company was in disorder and suffered casualties.

Yan.

[Deleted]

1. Geometry.The problem is geometry. How many houses are within 200 meters of your house? How many within 400 meters, how many within 800 meters, etc.

The relationship is not linear, it is exponential.

2. Clearing attack. A clearing attack is meant to push enemy elements back from effective fire range. This means you attack out a certain range, call it Q for Quincannon, then return to your position. This is standard military thing, the Egyptians were doing this 400 years ago.

So how far is Q? Q is a function of your ranged capability vice enemy ranged capability. At LBH US forces had a direct fire capability of 2-300 meters. So did Indians. But Indians also had an indirect fire capability with arrows at 200 meters and below.

3. Discussion. A clearing attack is designed to clear space from a defined point.  So once you go x distance from this point, the optimal plan is clear left and right. Do not under any circumstances go farther from start point.

I am probably not explaining this well. I was hoping my punching a swarm of bees analogy would make sense.

[quincannon]

The situation in all probability called for a very limited clearing or spoiling attack of no less that 200 meters from the start point to no further that 400 meters. Attacks once they get going are sometimes hard to stop, but you must stop when the immediate objective is attained and before you lose control. Remember that attack in all likelihood started in a line formation, and the line is the hardest of all to maintain control of.

[yanmacca]

Thank you gentlemen, now this sweep to clear the area makes more sense then any notion about the hostiles on greasy grass ridge being the threat. C company would be sent to clear maybe a few Indians that were dodging about the place, but I would reckon that this sweep would be prone to fire from the shot range Indian weapons such as bows and hand guns.

There was probably shrubs in the lie lowing areas such as coulees and ravines, these would also give cover to the attackers and as the troopers wheeled past they would come into bow range, especially the horses.

Yan.

[quincannon]

In hindsight, it may have been better to conduct that attack dismounted, BUT, if hindsight were foresight we would all be millionaires.

[colt45]

If the C company "charge" had halted at the point where L company's line ended (as QC said, about 200 meters tops), they could have pushed the hostiles away from L company and could have held that area for a while. I'm guessing that when the charge began, the targeted hostiles began to retreat toward Greasy Grass ridge. This encouraged the troopers to continue on, feeling they had the upper hand. When they got past the point where the coulee joins the one coming from Deep Ravine, they suddenly found a whole mess of Indians there, now more or less on their right flank. They would also have been within effective range of fire from Greasy Grass, so now they have fire from the front and the flank, plus the original retreating hostiles probably stopped retreating and counterattacked. If it happened that way, it is no wonder the charge fell apart and the company rapidly disintegrated into every man for himself.

[yanmacca]

I would like to pose a question to all those that have stood on battle ridge and looked down towards the C company sweep area including FF ridge, and would the lie of the land take them along certain routes to avoid small ravines and coulees, don't forget that these thirty odd mounted troopers would probably be in charge formation or line and would take up a broad front of around 60 or 70 yards wide, so they would need a relatively wide expanse of land, and not terrain that would break their formation.

If this question sounds stupid then please forgive me, as I have a strange way of looking at things.

Yan.

[colt45]

Yan,
The terrain there would have funneled the troops down a bit, constricting the width of the charge line. You can use google earth to see the terrain as it leads from Calhoun hill down toward greasy grass ridge. Harrington's charge would have been down between the ridge lines, narrow at first, then opening up about the time the coulee that would have been on their right intersects the coulee they were in. I would venture a guess that about the time the terrain allowed them to really spread out on a line, they met hostiles on their right from the coulee and also received a lot of fire from greasy grass ridge. The terrain would most definitely have influenced how the charge came off.

[quincannon]

Agree. In all probability they let their own initial success defeat them. Not at all uncommon.

[mac]

Aug 19, 2015 14:20:52 GMT montrose said:

1. Geometry.The problem is geometry. How many houses are within 200 meters of your house? How many within 400 meters, how many within 800 meters, etc.

The relationship is not linear, it is exponential.

2. Clearing attack. A clearing attack is meant to push enemy elements back from effective fire range. This means you attack out a certain range, call it Q for Quincannon, then return to your position. This is standard military thing, the Egyptians were doing this 400 years ago.

So how far is Q? Q is a function of your ranged capability vice enemy ranged capability. At LBH US forces had a direct fire capability of 2-300 meters. So did Indians. But Indians also had an indirect fire capability with arrows at 200 meters and below.

3. Discussion. A clearing attack is designed to clear space from a defined point.  So once you go x distance from this point, the optimal plan is clear left and right. Do not under any circumstances go farther from start point.

I am probably not explaining this well. I was hoping my punching a swarm of bees analogy would make sense.

Can I rephrase here
As you get closer to the enemy the geometry may dictate, and does in this case, that you involve exponentially more of them rather than some linear increase.
Given the weapon being a single shot with the purpose of keeping the enemy at a longer range this geometry becomes even more important as exponential involvement will quickly become devastating.

The key thing here then is to know precisely what you are trying to achieve and what the value for "Q" is.
If the purpose is to clear to 200 meters then I may not need to advance 200 meters but simple to some lesser distance that allows me to clear that 200 meter space. How far will depend on terrain.
I wonder if from Calhoun Hill one can actually see enough of the terrain below to accurately decide how far to go.