dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Aug 20, 2015 20:52:08 GMT
QC Sledge became a professor of Biology, specializing in parasitic worms, at University of Montevallo, in Mobile, AL. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Aug 20, 2015 21:47:37 GMT
All very valid points. I suspect that these soldiers did not maintain their weapons primarily because they did not have officers and noncommissioned officers insisting that they did, which goes back to training. I am happy that Steve mentioned care of ammunition along with weapons. It is equally important. There is a scene in Victory at Sea showing a Marine on board a ship heading for Guadalcanal removing, cleaning, and replacing the rounds of ammunition in one of those old cloth machine gun belts. It made a very positive impression on me. Okay for someone who is not familiar with gun/ammo care what did the 7th probably do with ammo and what should they have done? It seems just bizarre to think that a soldier wouldn't regularly clean and care for his gun. Someone really must have dropped the ball there.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 21, 2015 2:15:40 GMT
They probably did nothing or next to nothing, which is unfortunate. The fact that they were not compelled to do something was criminal neglect.
Unless you have washed you car and kept in in a garage since you last drove it, go out in your driveway with a white glove on and wipe it all over your vehicles. Then look at the palm of your hand. You will get no better answer than that. Then think about the fact that all that dirt on your glove, and a lot more, unless you are in the habit of driving over virgin prairie, is exactly what is on your weapon, upon which depends your life.
Twice a day, every day, and more when required by the situation you find yourself in.
Dirty ammunition is just as deadly as a dirty weapon. Most of what we carried were carried in enclosed ammunition pouches. I used three different models during my time. The worst for maintenance was the ten pouch belt which held one, eight round clip. A few hours in the field and dirt and grime had collected on the clip and on the rounds themselves. It was a constant problem. The other two types were larger pouches. We carried two each, and they were designed to hold magazines for the M14 and M16 respectively. Even though the ammunition were in magazines, and the magazines within pouches, they needed at least daily cleaning, where we would unload the magazine, clean the ammo, clean the magazine as well as possible then reload.
This is one aspect of the discipline I constantly make reference to. You either have it or you don't, and you stand a better chance of dying without it than with it.
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Post by Beth on Aug 21, 2015 5:12:50 GMT
Thanks. That makes perfect sense when you point it out.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 21, 2015 23:48:34 GMT
If you look at the things associated with the military and military life Beth, most of what you will find is the application of common sense. Take care of the things you use, and they will tae care of you. Fail to do so and they will not.
It seems apparent to me that the weapon problem at LBH had two prime causal factors, lack of maintenance, and the copper jacketed cartridge. The first is a easy fix, and the second should have been discovered long before battle. Both in my view are criminal level neglect. The training issue, specifically marksmanship, I am a little open on. In a perfect world marksmanship should have been heavily emphasized, but I am not at all sure if it was anywhere in the Army at the time. I could be convinced though if someone has something to offer for to compare in one or more of the other contemporary units.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Aug 27, 2015 11:38:09 GMT
I like them all. Choose the right weapon for the job. I have an AR -10 in .308. A Ruger Scout in .308 and a Remington in .308. But it is hard to beat an AR-15 carbine for a bail out firearm. I like the maneuverability in close quarters and the weight for a long hike.
I still haven't figured out how to carry them horseback.
AZ Ranger
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 14:08:10 GMT
Weapon selection is a function of individual training, which no one will argue.
But it also a function of collective training, which I believe these boards underestimate. And Steve, I believe this is also a fundamental difference between LEO and military units.
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Post by Beth on Aug 27, 2015 14:10:46 GMT
Will you explain a bit more on what you mean?
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Post by quincannon on Aug 28, 2015 0:03:35 GMT
Were you to take a nine man rifle squad and tell them they could choose any weapon they wished to carry in combat, about the only thing you could say for sure is that each man carried the weapon that he felt most comfortable with. They could very well be nine different weapons firing nine different types of ammunition.
How do you go about training these nine?
How do you assure yourself that the weapons selected are consistent with the designed purpose of the organization?
How do you form a team of teams (for that is what a squad is - a team formed from two other teams) with such possible divergent weapons?
How do you keep them supplied with the proper type of ammunition?
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 28, 2015 11:59:15 GMT
Logistics will always be a problem when serving in the field, much more so in Custer’s day, so it makes sense to standardize as much as possible to keep things to a minimum and having three or four different types of ammo will be a quartermasters nightmare, so in 1876 the quartermaster had only two types of rounds to supply the 7th, pistol and carbine, go forward fifty years and things would change considerably, in 1942 the quartermaster would have to supply;
.45 APC (pistol and sub-machine gun) .30 (carbine) .30-06 (rifle) .50 (heavy machine gun) Plus grenades. And that is just for the average infantryman.
The training aspect depends on which nation you are serving in, and what era but during WW2 most nations built their squads or sections around a light machine gun which fired the same calibre ammo as their rifles.
Yan.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Aug 30, 2015 13:05:13 GMT
Law enforcements primary weapon system is a handgun. It is always with them. It is what they are required to qualify with or lose their certification. It is the only weapon where non qualification could lead to taken off patrol until qualified or even dismissal. The use of the shotgun and rifles are up to the particular agency and their policies vary.
I agree Will in regards to the collective training.
Law enforcement agencies have different training levels of comfort with some only the mandatory qualification. Even within an agency different units of equal responsibilities could receive different training. In Region II of my Department we had a lot of experience in training and the maintaining of instructor skills. Our instructors sought out training opportunities and passed it on the Regional officers.
There are some police agencies that may have a chief, lieutenant, and two patrol officers. How much training they do is problematic. On the other end some large agencies have dedicated units that train all of the time.
Regards
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 5, 2017 10:17:36 GMT
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Post by rebcav on Oct 5, 2017 12:10:32 GMT
The US Marines were famous for their firepower, when you see my new web site (yes it will be along in due course) you will notice how well armed they were, but this brave guys like Corporal Tony Stein took things further with his customised M1919 called the “Stinger” which he put to great use on Iwo Jima. Corporal Stein was later killed on Iwo Jima. Yan. And he earned the Congressional Medal of Honor in the process......Cpl. Stein did one hell of a job on 19 February 1945. Respectfully, Duane
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 5, 2017 14:09:07 GMT
Quite so, Duane, quite so.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 5, 2017 14:28:42 GMT
The rest of the story, easy to find!
United States Marines have often had a reputation for improvising battle weapons and tactics to suit their needs on the battlefield. One of these was the little known but very effective Stinger light machine gun of the last months of World War II.
The Browning M1919 was developed and put into production just narrowly too late for World War I but was the premier light machine gun of its day. Weighing 31-pounds empty, it was capable of firing up to 400, 30-06 rounds per minute from its 250 round fabric belt. This allowed a pair of gunners to accompany small infantry units down to the platoon level and drastically increase their firepower.
When large US airplanes such as bombers and patrol aircraft in the inter-war period (1919-1941) were found to need protection from attacks from the rear and sides, the military turned to the M1919. The weapon was greatly modified with a thinner barrel, finely machined parts with lightening cutouts, and the use of very thin stampings. The modification, dubbed officially Browning Machine Gun, Cal.30, M2, Aircraft, was simply known as the ANM2. The ANM2 was a third lighter than the standard M1919 at on 21.5-pounds and fired at a blistering 1350-rounds per minute.
During the war in the Pacific, the United States Navy and Marines lost thousands of aircraft not only to enemy action, but also to accidents and mechanical failures. It was from some of these junked aircraft that enterprising marines obtained ‘surplus’ ANM2s and decided to modify them for use on the ground.
Early marines such as Private Bill Colby in 1943 used a re-purposed ANM2, still with the spade grips attached, simply by jury-rigging a bipod to the front of the barrel. In November 1944, Para Marine Sergeant Mel J Grevich, of the machine gun section G Company, 28th Marine Regiment, 5th Marine Division, began a more complex adaptation. With the blessing of his commanding officers all the way to the battalion level, he began manufacturing the new weapon in Hawaii while the 5th MARDIV waited to invade Iwo Jima.
Taking surplus ANM2 and parts acquired “from God knows where,” Grevich manufactured six finished weapons with the help of Private First Class John Lyttle. Lyttle for the record said years later of the base machinegun parts that, “I don’t recall how or where we got them.” The design took the ANM2, removed the spade grips, added a simple trigger to the firing solenoid, used M1 Carbine replacement stocks for a grip, attached a BAR bipod to the front, gave the whole thing a 100-round box magazine that held a linked belt of ammunition, and painted them a camouflaged color. The result was a weapon just over forty inches long, weighing in at a manageable 25-pounds, and capable of firing 30-06 rounds at a rate three times faster than the standard M1919A6 of the day.
They were not pretty, but they could drop it like it was hot so to speak. Each of the Stingers as they were called was dubbed with females names. Mel’s own personal example was named “Betty Ann.”
Mel Grevich and the rest of his division sailed from Hawaii in January 1945 towards the Japanese home islands. Each of the six Stingers in the hands of 28th Marine Regiment gunners served excellently. The only complaints were that the weapon’s extremely high rate of fire and thin barrel overheated rapidly. This was because the base weapon had been designed to be with the 300-mph slipstream of a US Navy with Stinger Machine gun.dive-bombing aircraft to cool it. However, the gunners soldiered forward and concentrated on short meaningful bursts to take out pillboxes and on-rushing enemy soldiers with great effect.
One of the six gunners with Stingers on Iwo was Corporal Tony Stein. Stein landed on Iwo Jima February 19, 1945 with his unit and in the initial assault, he was among the first members of his unit to set up a defensive position away from the beach. There he began to engage Japanese forces with his custom Stinger machinegun. Corporal Tony Stein held his Stinger light machinegun on target and destroyed enemy pillbox after pillbox by charging them alone and destroying the crew inside while firing away with his weapon.
The Stinger’s extremely high rate of fire and the momentum of the combat led quickly to Stein running out of ammunition. Kicking his shoes off and throwing his M1 helmet down, he ran back to the beach to get more 30-caliber ball for his weapon. As he ran, he picked up a wounded fellow Marine and carried him back to the beach to obtain aid. He repeated this feat no less than 8 times, bringing a wounded man back to the beach, grabbing a few belts of ammunition to fire at Japanese pillboxes, and then returning with a smoking weapon and another wounded Marine. Later that day he performed a rear guard action covering his unit’s withdrawal.
Corporal Stein’s Medal of Honor Citation signed by President Harry Truman reads in closing, ” Stouthearted and indomitable, Corporal Stein, by his aggressive initiative, sound judgment and unwavering devotion to duty in the face of terrific odds, contributed materially to the fulfillment of his mission, and his outstanding valor throughout the bitter hours of conflict sustained and enhanced the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service”.
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